Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

[miwoodar]

Well put thriceangel -

In my eyes...the grail is the 'maintenance' dose as opposed to the 'remediation' dose. The latter is a piece of cake but acts like a hammer. I can imagine it behaving exactly like you described. The former, the maintenance dose, essentially balances the teeter totter and gives the aquarist a precision instrument. With it, the aquarist can tweak levels up/down on command.

 

[murraycamp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12003675#post12003675 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Well put thriceangel -

In my eyes...the grail is the 'maintenance' dose as opposed to the 'remediation' dose. The latter is a piece of cake but acts like a hammer. I can imagine it behaving exactly like you described. The former, the maintenance dose, essentially balances the teeter totter and gives the aquarist a precision instrument. With it, the aquarist can tweak levels up/down on command.

Exactly. My goal is to have nutrient input equal out with export, taking all denitrification pathways into account (skimming, cheato, live rock, ect.). I feed heavily, so this just gives me another tool.

I look at it form the perspective of feeding. We feed our fishes, corals, and other invertebrates in a somewhat manipulative fashion to achieve certain goals (increased growth, disease resistance, ect.) Why not feed all components of our captive ecosystems, including bacteria. Somewhat simplified, but I have no more conceptual problem with this methodology (correctly applied) than with many other applications we use (refugia, cal/alk supplementation, kalkwasser, skimming, plankton drips ect.)

 

[miwoodar]

I feel the same way. At the end of the day, it's just a tiny closed system - a small piece of reef without an ocean lending stability.

 

[Zoom]

Well a little update here :
I start to dose 1/2 Tsp of sugar about a week a go , after i kill the dinos with going for four days with out any lights and then i cut back my 750W of MH to 5 hours and use my 198W PC 50/50 for 12 hours. I have no dinos now for long time and is no trace of them i can say they are history after a good fight that lasted for over a year .


Ok back to sugar dosing
Before i start the dosing i check the tank water that was a week a go

N03...... 5
P04 .......0.02
With a new Saliferd N03 test kit and colorimeter for the p04.
I start with very low dose and i will go one more week with the same dose before i up it to 1 tsp a day.
I know it is some N03/P04 in my tank i can see the nuisance algae growth not bad but is there i think the nuisance algae such it up to fast to see it in my test kits.
Ok today i check N03 is now 0.2 :eek1: P04 still 0.02.
My water is nice and clear i never had a cloudy water but i don't dose much.

 

[thriceanangel]

I really wouldn't worry about 5ppm NO3... That is actually a great level and well within tolerances of any coral, fish or invert you'd like to keep. But .2 is even better...

Glad the lights out thing worked for you...

 

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12012865#post12012865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thriceanangel
I really wouldn't worry about 5ppm NO3... That is actually a great level and well within tolerances of any coral, fish or invert you'd like to keep. But .2 is even better...

Glad the lights out thing worked for you...

Was not only the lights out because I have done it many times before I think just the whole combination of things I did just got to them.
I think I have much more N03 /P04 in the tank than the test shows I have good nuisance algae growth around the tank not bad but enough to get me to use sugar.
The rock in the tank is 14 years old and most likely saturated with bad things after all this years .
I let you all know if the nuisance algae dies off .

 

[discotu]

I've been dosing a couple weeks now...showed some initial improvement from 160 (MAX reading) down to about 80, but stuggling to get it down significantly below that.

tank specs 225g with heavy bioload (fish) and I feed a lot.

My first dose was 4tsp and noticed a bac bloom.
I reduced to 2tsp/day for about a week and did not notice a bac bloom with each dose. I also didn't see an reduction in nitrates so i ramped up to 3 tsp/day now for about a week. I noticed a bac bloom with each 3 tsp dose and a hazy film develops on the glass. Throughout, the skimmer has been churning out some gross skimmate. Fish and a handful of softies are doing great and haven't noticed any change in health or behavior.

A few questions:

Im still running my UV sterilizer. should I turn this off until i reach my maintenance dose? but i wonder if things will get thrown off once i turn it back on?

I am using an aquarium pharmaceuticals test kit. when you compare the test tube against the color chart, should the test tube be touching the card or held slightly off the card. I noticed there's a big difference btw the two especially when you're in the red zone.

Should I adjust by dose?

thanks!

 

[Zoom]

Five days of dosing so far 1/2 TSP a day 200g tank full of corals.

Some Things i don't like about the sugar dosing . My ORP after daily dosing goes from 290 to 225 and over night back up to 280 is still not as good as it was before the Sugar dosing . The PH is also down from 8.3 to 8.15 in the day and down to 7.95 in the morning from 8.1 that what usually is every morning .
All the corals looks better than ever, polyp extension on my SPS corals is better than i ever saw .
I still have some Hair algae in the reef tank i don't know if or ever will go away.
The skimmer is going crazy now .
Tonight i check the N03 it is now a big O :thumbsup: i did not have to go to far to get that but in five days no more N03 reading on my Saliferd test kit , also P04 is down to 0.01.
So far so good do you think i need to back off on the sugar some?
I wish the hair algae start to melt a little,
That was the main reason i started to dose sugar.

 

[thriceanangel]

I'd try 1/4 tsp twice a day to try to stabilize things a bit. Never tried it, but I'm thinking that it might work... Your ORP is going to vary with the dosing, probably no matter what. The bllom and the die off happens in hours not days so things will tend to swing a bit, but with some tinkering you can get it to be minimal.

 

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12045624#post12045624 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thriceanangel
I'd try 1/4 tsp twice a day to try to stabilize things a bit. Never tried it, but I'm thinking that it might work... Your ORP is going to vary with the dosing, probably no matter what. The bllom and the die off happens in hours not days so things will tend to swing a bit, but with some tinkering you can get it to be minimal.

The ORP keeps going downward now 212 i don't like it i don't dose that much at all.
I will try your idea , two times a day 1/4 TSP to see the outcome.
I think i don't need to dose that much any more the N03 is now O.
I can even get any color at all on my Saliferd test kit .

 

[Zoom]

Update:
I now dose two times a day much better ORP # and PH # almost as good as before dosing .
So far sugar dosing all the coral love the constant food i supply.

 

[Zoom]

Today i install the big skimmer Deltec AP902 because the AP851 was overwhelm the sugar really kicked up the production of the skimate i think this is not going to last to long is not going to be anything to pull out of the tank soon, i may have to cut back the sugar dosing to a 1/4 TSP a day soon.


__________________

 

[Zoom]

I put the smaller skimmer back to the tank today i was getting more nog out of the tank with the smaller skimmer, but the bigger one was giving me higher PH with the sugar dosing but cutting my dosing back more i don't need the big skimmer any longer and the extra electricity / Heat was getting the tank warm.
So here is a good updates .
I cut back my Sugar dosing some more now i use 1/4 TSP a day.
I cut back more because i saw some thing that indicates to me low nutrient in my tank .
Some of the corals was getting lighter .
The live rock was losing the hair algae slowly i can see some small areas with hair algae is now clean as it can be but some areas still have some thicker hair algae still hanging in there so i cut back some even so some algae still there but i need to go slower is only been two weeks now.
I think so far even that i'm going slowly i seen some thing i don't like so i cut back and anyone need to be very careful with carbon dosing you can strip the tank off the nutrient very fast and start to kill things in the tank .
I will still dose small amount every day till all the hair algae disappear then i cut back some more

 

[Solitaryensis]

Hey guys,
Great thread over the past 2 years. Ive been in reefing for any years and for the most part, have had sucess with minimal testing and water changes. However, over the course of a year or so, my 40 breeder has shown almost no growth, even GSP and leathers that would normally grow at very high rates. I have started to do very regular (25% every week or two) and still have not noticed a drop in my nitrates. I do not have a very heavy bioload and am running a euroreef that does a decent job. The only source i can think of for the high nitrates are the SSB or my filter socks, but im not sure that those two would cause such a high reading, even after a big water change. I am tempted to go the sugar route but want to figure out the source before doing so. What do the experts think? TIA

 

[JakStat]

it's not voodoo people. our hobby doesn't exist in a scientific vacuum.

using external carbon sources to augment denitrification is something that has been used for decades in wastewater treatment and large scale public aquariums with systems containing whales, sharks etc., i.e. sloppy eaters.

it is discouraging that so many hobbyists have crudely mimicked such an effective and venerable approach to denitrification by simply dumping in sugar or ethanol rather than targeting the relevant bacterial populations, or by not titrating the dose. as a result we see all these bad outcomes following brief initial success which has resulted in a solid technique getting a bad rap.

disappointing. i expected more from this crowd.

 

[Zoom]

JakStat

JakStat

I don't know about everyone else but i have a very good results with my minimum sugar dosing. I'm down to 1/4 Tsb a day and the tank never look as good in 14 years is now been 20 days i did started very slow and i think that is the way everyone should do the carbon dosing need to start with very low dose and it will take care it self but you need time and alat of it . If you need overnight results.
Carbon dosing is not the way to go.

 

[miwoodar]

it's not voodoo people. our hobby doesn't exist in a scientific vacuum.

using external carbon sources to augment denitrification is something that has been used for decades in wastewater treatment and large scale public aquariums with systems containing whales, sharks etc., i.e. sloppy eaters.

it is discouraging that so many hobbyists have crudely mimicked such an effective and venerable approach to denitrification by simply dumping in sugar or ethanol rather than targeting the relevant bacterial populations, or by not titrating the dose. as a result we see all these bad outcomes following brief initial success which has resulted in a solid technique getting a bad rap.

disappointing. i expected more from this crowd.

:lol:

Poking the crowd a little, eh? From my reading, I tend to believe carbon dosing approaches have been getting a pretty good rap as of late. Sure, it's easy to find the bad results posted. It's even easier to find the good ones though. The fact that these threads never die tends to lend some sort of primative confirmation IMO.

Unfortunately, many of the people who could really be pushing threads like this are no longer with us . They are on the web though if you're willing to look (a number of good sites exist). Apparently someone in this thread on RC was supposed to tell us how to determine dosages to target the growth of relavent baterial populations...hmmm? Maybe you could enlighten us a little, Mr. Anderson?

 

[miwoodar]

DP

 

[Otogi]

Hey all, I am thinking of giving this a try on my FOWLR. For the past month my Nitrates have been High, around 50ppm (I think, could be higher but hard to see the difference is colors on the chart “API”). I have been using Amquel+ for the past 2 weeks but have not seen any real difference. I have a 90g with a 30-40g fuge, about 120#s of LR and 100#s of LS. I run a Reef Devil Skimmer a TLF carbon reactor and a UV 24/7. I have a lot of cheato in my fuge. I do main feedings every other day and small pellet/flake feedings on the off days. I think I am a bit heavy stocked but not to much. I have been trying to control my problem but not having much luck, all inhabitants are alive, healthy and very active. I was thinking of using this sugar method to keep my nitrates from going any higher and lower them until I can find what the cause of my problem is. I do 10 to 15 gallon weekly water changes and am getting ready to do a couple 30g changes to try and drop my nitrate problem a bit.

My questions are:
Is there anything else I should try aside from water changes (which I will be doing a lot of over the next week) before trying the sugar method?
How much sugar should I dose my system with and how often?
Should I leave my carbon reactor and UV on will dosing or turn them off during the dosing period?
When dosing the sugar should I dose it in the display or in the fuge?
And should I dissolve the sugar in a cup of R/O first or just drop the grains straight into the DT or fuge?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice and info

 

[JakStat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12165264#post12165264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Apparently someone in this thread on RC was supposed to tell us how to determine dosages to target the growth of relavent baterial populations...hmmm?

ideally, the alcohol or sugar should be dosed directly into the localized anoxic environments where denitrification is occurring. in large aquariums like the Montreal Biodome, they dose methanol directly into their denitrification coil. this permits only the denitrifiers to exploit the extra carbon, rather than boosting the total overall population of bacteria in the system. dosing the entire system makes for a nutrient free-for-all, and passive diffusion/bernoulli limitations in aquaria (meaning sandbed, live rock) means the anoxic environments don't get first hit at the extra carbon. it is possible they won't get much boost at all when the depletion of nutrients in substrate is factored in with lower diffusion of water.

as for the quantity, you need to titrate the nitrates. this is because the C:N ratio has to be stoichiometrically favorable for efficient denitrification, with C being carbon, and N being nitrogenous compounds, in this case nitrate. if the ratio is imbalanced you'll get blooms of non-denitrifying bacteria. a good C:N ratio for efficient denitrification is between 3.5 and 5, for those willing to calculate molar concentrations.

Dosage must be empirically determined by titration of nitrates, i.e. start off with very, very low levels of alcohol while measuring nitrates. As the dosage of alcohol increases, nitrates should begin to fall. When 0 nitrates are achieved, the correct dosage has been attained. Do not dose extra, and do not dose if no nitrates are detectable to begin with.

other considerations:

Low frequent doses are preferable to high infrequent doses. An ideal regimen would entail constant dosing of low concentrations of alcohol.

Localization of alcohol with denitrifying populations. Dose as close as possible the environment of denitrifying bacteria. Extra unused alcohol will be consumed by something else in the tank, and lead to a bloom of undesirables.

Purity: reagent grade alcohols are preferable to pharmaceutical grades, which are preferable to alcohols bottled for human consumption.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12165264#post12165264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Maybe you could enlighten us a little, Mr. Anderson?

!!!