Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

[saltyESQ]

I have been dosing sugar for well over a year and my experience is different than most others.

First, unless I get the cloudy bacterial bloom nitrates will remain the same.

Second, it is not the quality of skim my skimmer pulls out that reduces nitrates, but the more foamy the skim (to the point where the foam escapes through the overflow holes in the collection cup) that seems to reduce nitrates.

I currently dose 10 or so teaspoons per week in my 210g.
I used to dose 10 or so tablespoons with no problems.

 

[*leeinengland*]

Re: Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7867058#post7867058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishykid9212
This truly does work and you will be very suprised how much money it saves you in salt for water changes. I'm not saying you never have to do them again, I'm saying you don't have to ever do water changes to lower nitrates. I have directed many people in the right direction, and not one of those people have told me that they lost live stock and/or corals in the process. :thumbsup: [/B]

when it does go wrong tho it goes wrong on a huge scale
this was feb last year

Well i aint even gonna ask what the biggest mistake you have made but here is mine. After years of keeping fish in many forms i have never, ever, ever done this before, and its cost me big time, First of no fish have been lost but quite a few of my prized corals have, and my tank is distroyed :-[ but it will come back.


lets take a quick look at what it was like

before i show you its current condition this is what it looked like yesterday morning

( now you see why i was buisy mike)


So how it get like this ?

Easy less pace and more thought is the key, I needed to top my sump up and so went and got the 25ltr tub, thought ummmm strainge it's empty; oh well not the first time and run off 25 ltrs of RO water, nothing wrong there with the process so far, Well this is were it goes wrong, one of my children had decided to swap the containers around and not just content there at that but they decided in why i dont know but to swao all the lids about at that, Now two drums i use the other i was using for waist water from doing the changes this way it was gradually getting washed out,

Getting washed out, from what , well i posted a post otherday about glycarine and what it is, basicly its sugar and so there for the tubs once cleaned were safe as they were food grade tubs, Now i pored the contents of the tub into the sump as per usual and inadvertantly added about 1 table spoonfull of glycarine into the sump, now before i could even get to the sumps plugs the two 8000lph pumps had pumped it into the display tank, In went the usuall stuff Carbon, Hi collection matting and extra skimmer, Even thou my 250 was on at full tilt it still couldnt remove the unwanted addition to the tank,

so glad i mad that mod to the skimmer as the collection cup needed empting every two hours,

 

[*leeinengland*]

Now what has happened here is the addition of Carbon to the system has created a messive bio boost as i posted earlier in the week the dangers of this happening well now you know why i posted it, not as a prevention or as a guide to experimentation but becouse i was bricking it that i had lost my whole set up by a simple mistake that should not have happened

Plan of action massive water change as all perams are now threw the roof

Ammonia on the right

600ltrs out of the tank and about four years of my life has disapiered
lights on so you can still see the colouration of the water

lights off

Ok so were at the stage of now filling it back up now theres no way made in hell my Ro is going to give me 600ltrs of water in less than a hour so I used what was available and Tap water had to do for the rest, Lets face it the elements its putting in from the tap aiint as deadly as what im removing plus there is poison removing matting in the sump like over 30 quids worth, So on with filling it back up, full bucket of salt later
and heres what it was looking like

As you see its cleared some but reading still high and i mean high, skimmer was drawing less and less so that needed a full strip down and clean, And bingo it never rains but it pores the prop shaft on the impellor was jammed up after releasing it i noted that its been spinning of centre

Not alot i could do at this point as it had gone 5pm so just inverted the whole lot and put it back together and prayed some more, Shut all lights down and prayed again,

Well this morning the tank looked pritty mutch the same as last night, perams had come down some but not enough, checked the fish stock all accounted for and suprisingly looking pritty healthy, Unlike my corals all my corals every one of them looked in a real bad way, So went and bought another load of salt so thats 2 buckets to press some poisons removing matting 1kg of carbon, and free advice, so far this Mistake i made has cost in excess of 130 pounds, but thats nothing to the cost i have suffered in anquish, dented pride and guilt for making such a dumb arse Mistake, So we did another 25% water change today dumped the corals in 50/50 new mix salt and swished them about to remove all the dead decaying flesh of them, what was not effected has gone into bevs tank and only the non effected one's like the nems and hard corals ie brains lattice etc,

set everything running again and now its a case of let that rock and filter earn its money 300kgs of rock it better bloody do its job is all i could think tonight whilst righting this up and having my tea, will be going to let it run till sunday afternoon before i even contemplate on another water change, but will maintain a vigalant check on the perams,

So as i said at the start the wreck will be posted last
well heres what last manths tank of the month now looks like

as you can see there is a air curtain in there thats in there as carbon on the water eats oxygen at an alrming rate of knotts and it also helps lift the amino fatty acids up and out of the water for the skimmers to uplift[/quote]

now my tank is back to normality and looks like

as you can see no detail so wouldnt have known much in 12 months

left side

right side

 

[basssnake]

leeinengland..........So, are all these tanks the same tank? The last pics look like they are in a wall, but the previous pics look like they are of a tank out in the open. Please explain.

Also, so you are saying you had bad luck with the dosing?? Hard to interpet what you were saying.

Anyone else have anything to add?? Is it a mistake to attempt this or dangerous to the system? Does it work in all systems or just some systems? Does it crash some systems for any reason? thanks

 

[miwoodar]

It's a sad accident by the way I read it. Here is what I got out of it....His kids used one of his buckets and left about a tablespoon of glycerine, an organic carbon source, in the bottom without his knowledge. He used the bucket to top off his tank and accidently carbon dosed his tank. The tank wasn't ready for such a massive dose and went into bacteria overdrive causing a chain reaction of death which then caused more death, then more.

*leeinengland* - how did you decide that it was a tablespoon of glycerine if you didn't check the bucket first? Sucky story. I'm glad to see the tank is on the rebound!

 

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14421808#post14421808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by basssnake
Anyone else have anything to add?? Is it a mistake to attempt this or dangerous to the system? Does it work in all systems or just some systems? Does it crash some systems for any reason? thanks

Beware of the 'if a little is good then a lot is better' mentality. Low doses can be beneficial to some tanks (it doesn't take a lot!). High doses can be disasterous. I would suggest reading through the entire thread before trying it. Watch your fish and corals for signs of stress. Some tanks respond immediately while others take a while to kick in. If your tank responds well it can be a simple way to keep your nitrates and phosphates in check.

 

[*leeinengland*]

no its the same tank just now encased in a false wall, basicly what had happened was i used to mix the sugar mix up into a 25 gallon water container shake it up well in over heated ro/di water so it desolved faster then let it cool,lay it accross the top of the sump and let it trickle feed into the sump, wich took approx 48 hours to do, my kids had been messing ( still babies at that point ) and swapped the lids over so i ended up using one that wasnt (fully washed out, as i was able to lay my hands on liquid glycarine containers at will) when i did water changes i just used these to fill and empty it washed them out, any way long and short used a soiled tub ended up putting in about 1/2 table spoon full of liquid sugar into the tank and the pics shows the effects 12 hours layter one huge bloom, the lower pics is the tank now 12 months later and lots of work, only sps have been added to to tank since the softies are what i managed to save

 

[hawkfishman]

??? i would never!!!

 

[miwoodar]

Why not? FWIW, Carbon dosing is one of the core technologies that my company uses (13,000 employees). We clean up groundwater through, not aquariums.

 

[Amoore311]

If you do it correctly than there is no problems. I dose vodka, not sugar.... same concept though.

Here's my tank after (correctly) dosing vodka over a period of 72 Days.

 

[albatz13]

dos anyone here think theres no natural source of sugars in the ocean??? maybe all these years all we have bin doing wrong is not adding sugar???? .......just saying anythings possible.....and for everyone who says its not natural well neither is keeping fish in big glass jars.there may not have bin proven scientifically that this method has or may not have any long term affects,but its proved everyday that keeping fish and corals in the first place case long term affects....all tanks crash. how many people have had a fully functional completely pristine full reef for more than 25 years and i mean the same tank never draining it . no one

 

[albatz13]

vodka is sugar......how do people say its crazy to use sugar but ok to use vodka...basic chem

 

[Amoore311]

how many people have had a fully functional completely pristine full reef for more than 25 years and i mean the same tank never draining it . no one

Paul B. is one of them. Most people wouldn't call his tank "pristine", no natural reef is "pristine" though. I'm sure there are a couple more here as well.

Keep in mind most people who would even have a reef for 25+ years would be around 50 years old. There are a lot of older people on Reef Central, not everyone in that age bracket is computer savy.

 

[miwoodar]

dos anyone here think theres no natural source of sugars in the ocean?

I would expect that you are absolutely right, there are sugars in the ocean. We are talking in the context of our tanks though. One way to bind up nutrients is to grow more bacteria (they need nitrogen and phosphorus to multiply). Well, what's stopping them from multiplying to the point that your N&P get used up? In some tanks the limiting factor is carbon. Adding organic carbon shifts the balance so the limiting factor is something else. If it's N&P, your nitrates and phosphates will drop.

maybe all these years all we have bin doing wrong is not adding sugar?

There is nothing wrong with adding an organic carbon source (be it ethanol, sugar, vinegar or something else) to shift the balance. There is also nothing wrong with *not* adding a carbon source. There are many ways to skin a cat here. Some people don't have nutrient problems to begin with. Others choose to use sand beds, and/or skimmers, and/or RDSBs, and/or GFO, and/or denitrators (carbon based or sulphur based), and/or refugiums of various sorts. Pick whatever tools you would like. It doesn't matter to me. I support carbon dosing as an option because it is very cost effective yet extremely simple.

BTW, my company usually chooses molasses (don't use molasses in a reef, not pure enough). It's the cheapest organic source to pump into the ground. When you are pumping thousands or millions of gallons of the stuff into the ground, it's important to choose the cheapest option.

 

[*leeinengland*]

after months of water changes etc itsettledand fromaround oct last year i started with the vokda again at 5ml a day adding carbon to the tank helps, i have started using the prodibio and the beall is its a carbon based bioligical mix instead of just adding it raw
imo it works and if treated with the respect it deserves works well

 

[Zoom]

I never will stop using carbon dosing /sugar or Vodka.
Is now been over a year the tank never look as good .
Sure now i know when to stop dosing for some time and start again when needed .

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

So sugar/vodka has proven itself to be beneficial now, after over a year of using it, correct? I've read that sugar is better to dose then vodka. I have two tanks 120g reef and 210g FO, what is the recommended dosage? I have seen quite a few numbers here. Seems like start out with 1/8 teaspoon per 25g for reef, 1/4 teaspoon per 25g for FO. Dose every other day for FO but every 3 days for reef? And when I see a reduction in nitrates, do you cut the dosage in half like you do with vodka? I am a little confused on the whole process here. Also is all sugar the same?

 

[mcrist]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14428434#post14428434 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
I've read that sugar is better to dose then vodka.

Why is sugar better than vodka?

 

[miwoodar]

TBH, I seriously doubt it matters. I always dosed a VSV combo JIC though. I'm not dosing at the moment. I went through some hiccups after upgrading to my current tank...all is well at the now but I'm still trying to determine the 'baseline' before I start dosing again.

Yes, cut back after it kicks in. The theory behind this is that you start with a 'remediation' dose then once you see some results you would transfer over to a 'maintenance' dose.

Also, and this is not often discussed in these threads, watch your critters. If anything appears off kilter, cut back or stop for a while before beginning again. You are growing additional bacteria and you don't exactly get to choose what strains you end up with (I don't think you actually have much control over this even with the proprietary systems).

 

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14428629#post14428629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcrist
Why is sugar better than vodka?

I use both , Sugar is way more potent than vodka to me .
Right now i use vodka about 6m a day.
Don't fool your self you can kill the tank by over dosing with either.
Always start very very slow .