Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!
- Thread starter fishykid9212
- Start date
I'm more of a RDSB person as the principals seem more sensible to me. Thus after reading 45+ odd pages of Calfo's now famous thread on the topic I'm giving them a try on my FOWLR's. I'll post updates with info as its develops. Nutshell version: a deep sandbed in a can....uses anaerobic/anoxic zones to naturally (ie a stable colony of bacteria) to reduce the nitrates. Doesn't take the place of anything else in a well designed system. Just is another tool. It requires patience of a month or two to establish but there are few things that don't require patience in this hobby that have LONGTERM positive effects.
I do heartily agree with the previous postings on the value of testing the system. Also I find it useful to test with multiple brands of test kit for the same reason research is often paralleled at multiple labs.... Yeah its redundant, but its accurately redundant.
You will always need water changes but a properly designed AND maintained system will need less of them. For my .02 cent analogy here goes....Its like saving money, nobody can live in our society spending NO money, but most can save some money.... Since salt mix and water (whether tap or RO/DI) costs money, its kind of the same thing.
Before I jump on the sugar bandwagon, I might consider taking a 20-30 gallon tank with way too many damsels and let it get nasty.....or better yet; do the sadly typical "55 gallon" w' a yellow tang (or two), snow flake eel (will it eat xyz?), porky puffer (how long can I keep it in the 55?), clownfish (died "mysteriously"), misc lion (why wont it eat?), and at least some type of invert cleaning crew (aggressive cleaning crew WTB???) they are going to kill in short order.
Rant aside, when I can keep things peachy on a blatantly negligent setup for a year or two using the "sugar method" I'll consider using it on a main tank. Seriously, has anyone does a test tank setup on this for the purpose of testing or has it been only casual "oh *honk* my nitrates are at 80, quick get the dixie crystals/grey goose"?
I do heartily agree with the previous postings on the value of testing the system. Also I find it useful to test with multiple brands of test kit for the same reason research is often paralleled at multiple labs.... Yeah its redundant, but its accurately redundant.
You will always need water changes but a properly designed AND maintained system will need less of them. For my .02 cent analogy here goes....Its like saving money, nobody can live in our society spending NO money, but most can save some money.... Since salt mix and water (whether tap or RO/DI) costs money, its kind of the same thing.
Before I jump on the sugar bandwagon, I might consider taking a 20-30 gallon tank with way too many damsels and let it get nasty.....or better yet; do the sadly typical "55 gallon" w' a yellow tang (or two), snow flake eel (will it eat xyz?), porky puffer (how long can I keep it in the 55?), clownfish (died "mysteriously"), misc lion (why wont it eat?), and at least some type of invert cleaning crew (aggressive cleaning crew WTB???) they are going to kill in short order.
Rant aside, when I can keep things peachy on a blatantly negligent setup for a year or two using the "sugar method" I'll consider using it on a main tank. Seriously, has anyone does a test tank setup on this for the purpose of testing or has it been only casual "oh *honk* my nitrates are at 80, quick get the dixie crystals/grey goose"?
CoMMaNdeR
New member
Guys I never used the SUGAR method that many reefers are using nowadays, but wish to try someday and see if it really works.
By Nitrate is around 5, not alot but I wish to lower it to 0. If I dose sugar for let's say 2 weeks and I see my nitrates 0, if I stop dosing sugar what would happen to my tank?
Will everything remain normal ??
By Nitrate is around 5, not alot but I wish to lower it to 0. If I dose sugar for let's say 2 weeks and I see my nitrates 0, if I stop dosing sugar what would happen to my tank?
Will everything remain normal ??
fishykid9212
New member
The nitrate will most likely come up again, but I heard from some people that it remained at zero. For a 180G reeg, I would do 1 teaspoon every other day. And if you want you can mix it with water before adding it to the tank, I don't and you dont have to.
fishykid9212
New member
What I do, I have a FOWLR tank, I get the ammount I need on a spoon and dump it in to the tank. Since you have a reef I would mix it with a glass of water and dump it into your sump so none if it sits on corals.
fishykid9212
New member
No problem, It will just take a little longer to come down, what ever you do, don't over dose because you have corals. I just added one teaspoon to my 92G today and I have never seen any negative effects, just dose what I told you and you will be fine. I also have a phosphate reducing experiment with pickling lime in the works, I 'll let everyone know hos it goes.
fishykid9212
New member
yes, I am sure it will although this way doesn't really work to bring down phosphates and if the hair algae is from the phosphates no it won't work. As I said I am working on a way to bring down phophates, I am ver sure it will work but its in the works and I will let you know what the outcome is. But if the hair algae is from the nitrates it will work, when I first did this I had that red slim algae all over the back glass, I watched it melt right off the back glass right before my eyes 
cweder
Member
The book The Reef Aquarium Volume 3 by Sprung and Delbeek talk briefly on this subject using Vodka dosing as a Carbon source page 274-275. They found it important to dose daily at about 1 to 2 teaspoon per 260 gallons effective for bringing not only Nitrate but even Phosphate down to zero. So, this method should be very effective for hair algae as well. This study was done by (Mrutzek and Kokott 2004). It took 35 days to bring both Nitrate and Phosphate down to zero. They suggest starting at a low dose at first and gradually build up to 1 to 2 tsp per day or you may experience an algae bloom and I would think very cloudy water. According to this study the results may vary for people running deep sand beds. Im not sure if this means it wont work or if it just takes longer.
My experience: after 3 weeks my nitrates have gone from about 25 to 5 using 2 tsp per 250 gallons per day using Salifert test kit. I've been using half sugar and half vodka, sometimes all vodka or sugar. I have noticed a bacterial biofilm on tank glass and skimmer and a distinct odor that was'nt there before. Pointed out clearly from my wife. This film comes off with the usual methods, but there are some spots that do not seem to be coming off very well. The skimmer seems to be producing thicker heavier skimmate which is expected. The tank water did have a cloudier than normal appearance after about 3 to 4 days then cleared up again. I clean the biofilm off the tank about every 4 to 5 days.
My fish, snails, anemone all appear normal, I have no hard corals but soft corals may feed off the increased biomass being produced. I measured Nitrates after about 16 days and then again 3 days later and noticed the big drop, until then there was no improvement measured. The study show a very sharp decline after 24 to 30 days. I dosed a little more aggressively than they recommend due to impatience. So when they start to drop they seem to drop fast which is what the study shows as well. At first I thought this may be a quick fix and tried it for a week or 2 with no results when dosing sporadically. I am using this as part of my total tank husbandry technique since I want to run as large a bioload in my tank as possible with other proven husbandry techniques like water changes and aggressive skimming. I also began a remote DSB off the main tank at the beginning of my carbon (sugar/vodka) dosing and feed my 4 tangs and blue throat trigger about a tablesspoon of food per day along with an algae sheet eash day. I dose directly to sump. Without a sump I would recommend dissolving in tank water first. It dissolves fast.
My experience: after 3 weeks my nitrates have gone from about 25 to 5 using 2 tsp per 250 gallons per day using Salifert test kit. I've been using half sugar and half vodka, sometimes all vodka or sugar. I have noticed a bacterial biofilm on tank glass and skimmer and a distinct odor that was'nt there before. Pointed out clearly from my wife. This film comes off with the usual methods, but there are some spots that do not seem to be coming off very well. The skimmer seems to be producing thicker heavier skimmate which is expected. The tank water did have a cloudier than normal appearance after about 3 to 4 days then cleared up again. I clean the biofilm off the tank about every 4 to 5 days.
My fish, snails, anemone all appear normal, I have no hard corals but soft corals may feed off the increased biomass being produced. I measured Nitrates after about 16 days and then again 3 days later and noticed the big drop, until then there was no improvement measured. The study show a very sharp decline after 24 to 30 days. I dosed a little more aggressively than they recommend due to impatience. So when they start to drop they seem to drop fast which is what the study shows as well. At first I thought this may be a quick fix and tried it for a week or 2 with no results when dosing sporadically. I am using this as part of my total tank husbandry technique since I want to run as large a bioload in my tank as possible with other proven husbandry techniques like water changes and aggressive skimming. I also began a remote DSB off the main tank at the beginning of my carbon (sugar/vodka) dosing and feed my 4 tangs and blue throat trigger about a tablesspoon of food per day along with an algae sheet eash day. I dose directly to sump. Without a sump I would recommend dissolving in tank water first. It dissolves fast.
fishykid9212
New member
For somereason it doesn't lower my phosphates, do you think once my nitrates hit 0 if I keep dosing it will then work on the phosphate??
cweder
Member
In the study the phosphates came down first. The principle theory behind this technique is the molar ratio of phytoplankton being 106:16:1 of C:N
with carbon being the limiting ingredient for life in our tanks and that all living creatures need phosphate to survive. So removing these creatures before they die and release phosphate back into our systems is the key. Removing macroalgae is one means we use. In this case we are removing heterotrophic bacteria via water changes or protein skimming and maybe carbon (GAC). If the ratio of life we are ridding our tanks of is 106:16:1 of C:N then perhaps in your case you have limited your nitrates and have excess phosphate left over. The phosphates may need to be reduced by other means to get back in the proper ratio or just keep on dosing and eventually they should come down.
with carbon being the limiting ingredient for life in our tanks and that all living creatures need phosphate to survive. So removing these creatures before they die and release phosphate back into our systems is the key. Removing macroalgae is one means we use. In this case we are removing heterotrophic bacteria via water changes or protein skimming and maybe carbon (GAC). If the ratio of life we are ridding our tanks of is 106:16:1 of C:N then perhaps in your case you have limited your nitrates and have excess phosphate left over. The phosphates may need to be reduced by other means to get back in the proper ratio or just keep on dosing and eventually they should come down.
Last edited:
fishykid9212
New member
oh ok, so you don't think if I continue to dose after the nitrate is at zero the phosphate will come down??
fishykid9212
New member
Ok thanks, I think once my nitrate hits zero, I'll continue to dose it to bring down the phosphate
fishykid9212
New member
I thank you
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