Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!
- Thread starter fishykid9212
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Leopard Man
New member
I've been dosing about 1 teaspoon into my 56g tank with 21g sump for about a week. Nitrates are still 20, and haven't budged, but my tank gets a little cloudy sometimes. Should I continue with this dosage, or increase it a bit more?
When should I expect nitrate reduction?
When should I expect nitrate reduction?
thriceanangel
Active member
What were they before?
How old and what type of NO3 test do you have?
Your NO3 levels should have dropped to next to nothing almost right away (overnight). I suspect your test isn't accurate for one reason or another. I don't have any other explanation, because if you're seeing cloudiness, then you're producing more than enough bacteria to eliminate the NO3.
How old and what type of NO3 test do you have?
Your NO3 levels should have dropped to next to nothing almost right away (overnight). I suspect your test isn't accurate for one reason or another. I don't have any other explanation, because if you're seeing cloudiness, then you're producing more than enough bacteria to eliminate the NO3.
stevenw56
New member
Well I just spend most my morning reading the whole thread. I'm going to give it a try. I do have some thoughts:
I would really like to know exactly why and how it works. Is it anaerobic bacteria that is responsible for the reduction in nitrate, as in normal denitrification but at a faster rate with the added sugar? Or is it aerobic bacteria? I always thought that only anaerobic bacteria could convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. If it is aerobic bacteria what is the process?
I'd be interested to see if a bare tank with nothing in it except water with high nitrate and a skimmer would also bring the nitrate down with dosing sugar in the same amount of time.
I've noticed some continue to dose sugar even after nitrate is zero. Why? My thinking is dose sugar until you bring it down, keep up with good husbandry and if the nitrate rises to 5 or above continue the sugar dosing until nitrate is <5. Nitrate at 5 won't harm anything in fact it would be better than having it undetectable IMO.
I would really like to know exactly why and how it works. Is it anaerobic bacteria that is responsible for the reduction in nitrate, as in normal denitrification but at a faster rate with the added sugar? Or is it aerobic bacteria? I always thought that only anaerobic bacteria could convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. If it is aerobic bacteria what is the process?
I'd be interested to see if a bare tank with nothing in it except water with high nitrate and a skimmer would also bring the nitrate down with dosing sugar in the same amount of time.
I've noticed some continue to dose sugar even after nitrate is zero. Why? My thinking is dose sugar until you bring it down, keep up with good husbandry and if the nitrate rises to 5 or above continue the sugar dosing until nitrate is <5. Nitrate at 5 won't harm anything in fact it would be better than having it undetectable IMO.
wooden_reefer
New member
In denitrification, NO3 is used as the oxidizing agent, much as O2 is for nitrification.
In denitrification, NO3 oxidizes organics. It has been known for decades that ethanol and many sugars are food for many denitrification bacteria, as they "breathe" NO3.
It is also suggested by aquarists that when NO3 level is high, it frequently stablizes. It is quite possible that when NO3 level increases, marginal denitrification sites become active. That is, a site that is just a little bit too rich in O2 concentration at low level of NO3 may become active denitrification sites at higher level of NO3.
Concentration of organics may well have the same effect. High concentration of ethanol or organics may push marginal denitrification sites just a bit too rich in oxygen to become active denitrification sites.
I think for sugar to work at reducing nitrate, there must be some marginal denitrification sites. In a wet-dry filter with bioballs, it is likely that few sites are ever marginally possible for denitrification.
In denitrification, NO3 oxidizes organics. It has been known for decades that ethanol and many sugars are food for many denitrification bacteria, as they "breathe" NO3.
It is also suggested by aquarists that when NO3 level is high, it frequently stablizes. It is quite possible that when NO3 level increases, marginal denitrification sites become active. That is, a site that is just a little bit too rich in O2 concentration at low level of NO3 may become active denitrification sites at higher level of NO3.
Concentration of organics may well have the same effect. High concentration of ethanol or organics may push marginal denitrification sites just a bit too rich in oxygen to become active denitrification sites.
I think for sugar to work at reducing nitrate, there must be some marginal denitrification sites. In a wet-dry filter with bioballs, it is likely that few sites are ever marginally possible for denitrification.
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thriceanangel
Active member
The added sugar boosts both aerobic and anaerobic, on type converts ammonia to nitrate and the anaerobes covert nitrate to N2 gas. If the Ammonia isn't getting converted to nitrite enough to keep up with the anaerobes converting it to nitrate then you'd have a build up of ammonia -which would be of course far worse than nitrate levels being elevated. Kind of an "only as strong as your weakest like" type of thing.
Skimmers don't reduce nitrate directly, they remove some substances that will eventually break down into nitrate, but not nitrate itself. If you already have a nitrate problem, it won't help much if at all.
Once you get your nitrates to zero, you have reached equilibrium between the bacteria and nitrate/ammonia. If you stopped dosing, you wouldn't have enough carbon to support the bacteria and they would die off possibly adding to your problem. Bottom line is that your nitrates will spike again as they aren't getting metabolized.
You're right about adjusting your dosing adjustments. I wouldn't say stop dosing, but if you can keep them below 5ppm with husbandry, then keep that dose. But I doubt that you'll be able to just dose once or twice and have your NO3 levels remain stably low. Unless you have just neglegted your tank, and are just getting on top of it. But usually it's gong to be an overstocked tank that is overfed, or any other combination of factors that may lead to high NO3 levels, but in these situations, a single or even a couple doses aren't usually going to keep levels low.
Skimmers don't reduce nitrate directly, they remove some substances that will eventually break down into nitrate, but not nitrate itself. If you already have a nitrate problem, it won't help much if at all.
Once you get your nitrates to zero, you have reached equilibrium between the bacteria and nitrate/ammonia. If you stopped dosing, you wouldn't have enough carbon to support the bacteria and they would die off possibly adding to your problem. Bottom line is that your nitrates will spike again as they aren't getting metabolized.
You're right about adjusting your dosing adjustments. I wouldn't say stop dosing, but if you can keep them below 5ppm with husbandry, then keep that dose. But I doubt that you'll be able to just dose once or twice and have your NO3 levels remain stably low. Unless you have just neglegted your tank, and are just getting on top of it. But usually it's gong to be an overstocked tank that is overfed, or any other combination of factors that may lead to high NO3 levels, but in these situations, a single or even a couple doses aren't usually going to keep levels low.
stevenw56
New member
ok well that is my thought also. However earlier in the thread, I forget who it was, did some sort of testing and concluded it was aerobic bacteria lowering the nitrate. I didn't agree with that when I read the post.
I would think that an area favorable for anaerobic bacteria must be present in order for dosing sugar to work. I already had a canister filled with Seachem Matrix trying to reduce nitrate. Matrix is suppose to have surface area favorable for denitrification. I'm hoping that this canister filled with SeaChem Matrix will be an added benefit to the sugar dosing allowing plenty of anaerobic area for denitrifing bacteria to grow.
I would think that an area favorable for anaerobic bacteria must be present in order for dosing sugar to work. I already had a canister filled with Seachem Matrix trying to reduce nitrate. Matrix is suppose to have surface area favorable for denitrification. I'm hoping that this canister filled with SeaChem Matrix will be an added benefit to the sugar dosing allowing plenty of anaerobic area for denitrifing bacteria to grow.
wooden_reefer
New member
I don't doubt that some bacteria use organics aerobically, but not nitrification bactera nitrosonomas and nitrobacter. Ammonia is converted to nitrate by these bacteria, so I don't see how sugar interferes with nitrification, except by competition for O2.
Are you saying that nitrosonomas and nitrobacter would use the organics instead of ammonia and nitrite respectively and ignore the ammonia?
Leopard Man
New member
They were 20 before, but never dropped. I got cloudiness about 3 times over the course of a week, and I dosed 1 teaspoon a day for 7 days.
I have 2 API Nitrate test kits. One is 6 months old, and the other is 2 weeks old, and they both read 20 PPM. Is it by fluke that both API test kits are bogus?
Edit:
Just like to add that I just tested my quarantine tank with both kits and it reads 10. My main tank still reads 20 with both kits, and my RO water reads 0, with both kits and my FW tank reads 40 with both kits, so I conclude the test kits to be ok.
But can someone pls explain to me why my nitrates will not go down with a daily dose of 1tspn of sugar over the course of 7 days in a 56g tank with 21g sump? It has read 20 since I began dosing and still reads 20.
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thriceanangel
Active member
I would do a teaspoon and a half daily with 2 tsp once a week. Thats what I dosed in my 55 gal and it worked out well. Start with a 2 tsp dose, then drop to 1.5 tsp. Despite the cloudiness, you're not getting a big enough bloom I suspect. You won't hurt anything by upping the dosage to this level.
thriceanangel
Active member
No I'm not saying that at all, I think you're misunderstanding me. The carbon is ALWAYS used by the nitrosonomas and nitrobacter, but carbon is limiting, controlling their population. If you increase the amount of carbon, they will metabolize more nitrogen from ALL sources including Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite do to the increased population.
This is common in industries such as fish farming (where they add molasses as a carbon source) or waste water treatment.
For more information an Australian newsletter documenting this:
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/cps/rde/xchg/dpi/hs.xsl/30_2790_ENA_HTML.htm
Hope that helps!
Leopard Man
New member
Thank you thrice. I'll up the dosage and see how it goes daily.
Great thread everyone.
thriceanangel
Active member
For Nitrates and Phosphates as low as yours, I'd recommend other things first. -More frequent water changes, RDSB, better skimming, less feeding, better tank maintenance (vacuuming sand etc.) first. But if you've tried those things, or don't want to then I'd dose 6-8 tsp's if you had a more significant problem. But since you're already under 10ppm, I'd start in the 4-6 range. But you didn't list a sump in your system volume which is what counts. You're looking to have about .75 -1 tsp/25 gallons.
So if you have 200 total gallons, that would mean that it would need between 6-8 tsp. Then adjust accordingly. If they immediately go down to 0 ppm, then don't dose that high in future doses and just keep testing and adjusting as needed. After a while you'll get to a point where you will only have to test weekly.
So if you have 200 total gallons, that would mean that it would need between 6-8 tsp. Then adjust accordingly. If they immediately go down to 0 ppm, then don't dose that high in future doses and just keep testing and adjusting as needed. After a while you'll get to a point where you will only have to test weekly.
thriceanangel
Active member
1 teaspoon isn't a heavy dose, in fact it's below what I would recommend for a starting point. But I agree that there is NO3 being produced somewhere, but that's the tricky part. Sometimes it's very difficult to fine that "somewhere" hence the reason for this and many other threads.
I do wonder what would happen if he stopped dosing.
I do wonder what would happen if he stopped dosing.
Zoom
Premium Member
I have four tangs about 8" to 10" and 5 more fish about 4" to 5" each.
I feed about once a day and also feed my ginoporas and tubesteras three times a week.
I have no other algae but a tank full of Dinos now for a year .
I never try sugar or anything like it yet but I may .
I use a Deltec AP851 skimmer also have a AP902 on hand. i already try them both but the dinos still growing .
i also use ozone and have a tumbling cheato in my refuge total water may be about 200 g give and take 250/300 LR BB tank i even took the Calcium reactor off line and use two part to keep my PH high .
So far nothing help........I think I'm going to try some sugar to see if it will do any thing .
I check the PO4 is still low .
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thriceanangel
Active member
How high did you keep your pH? It needs to be REALLY high to kill dinos, which I believe is the only effective measure. My emerald crab got rid of them, but mainly just because he was going over the rocks cutting them loose, then they just stopped growing. I hate dinos! But go ahead try the sugar, but it may make it worse, I don't know. I have heard that people said that they got dinos after dosing sugar. Could be related, or not, I don't know that much about dinoflagellates. If you try it, keep us updated!
Zoom
Premium Member
I stop trying to keep the PH high all the kalk it was binding all the pump up.
It is not fun getting up in the mid of the night by the tunze alarms system screaming when the circulation pumps stop running .
I had kept the ph as high as 8.5/8.6 for about two weeks the dinos stop growing some but soon as i stop they are right back to there formal glory :lol: .
I don't know what to do now you got me thinking about dosing sugar.....I still have a full reef and don't need to kill it yet.
I think i just wait to see if they just go away on there own they can not live in this tank forever......I do no water changes or any thing that will feed them so they may die eventually.
Like you said the sugar dosing it may give them something to feed on.
Thank you any way.
Leopard Man
New member
I added 2 tsps yesterday. Nitrates are now 5 - 10. I have 6 acans, and some inverts, no fish. My skimmer is Deltec AP600.
Nitrates were 20 because the tank is still new and I haven't changed the water since it cycled.
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