Nitrate Reduction - Should I Keep Trying?

[QuiGonJay]

First, the tank parms to get them out of the way. Top off is RODI always:

Tank - 45 gallon, 9 months old, Salinity: 1/026, temp 80, Ca: 400, KH: normally 9, now 7.5 (very odd, not sure why), MG 1400, PH 7.9/8, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 20-30 depending on the test kit (been trying to get this down for two months). About 50 pounds live rock. Water changes every other week - about 10%.

Inhabitants: 2 small ocellaris clowns, 3 small pajama cardinals, CUC, 2 pep shrimp, xenia, mushroom coral, tree coral, gorgonian, leather coral, duncan frag, candy cane frag, zoa frag.

The nitrates have been at 20 to 30 for the past 3 months. I've done some research and tried the following:

* Adding polyfilter to catch particles and replacing weekly.
* Cut feeding to every other day - only what they eat in less than a minute.
* No feeding of coral (other than some mysis spot feeding once a week for the LPS frags.
* Drain all frozen food before feeding.
* Added skimmer (2 weeks ago)
* Added ChemiPure Elite and Purigen to media baskets (2 weeks ago)
* Replace remaining carbon bag every month.

Simply put, nothing yet has really made a difference. But, other than my issues with a tree coral (see Soft Coral discussion thread if you have any advice - I need it!), all my other inhabitants seem quite happy. Even the LPS frags are growing. No real algae issues either.

Should I just relax (still keep skimming and what not of course!) and not stress? Maybe this is just how my tank rolls? Should I be occaisionally giving my filter feeders some marine snow or something? Right now, I'm so paranoid to feed anything to add to the nitrate issue, I wonder if I'm keeping it too lean.

Clearly saltwater tanks are not a good hobby for worry prone neurotic guys like me. . . .

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

 

[DaveRaz]

I started off chasing numbers too. I stopped and enjoy my tank and animals much more. My NO3 measure between 5 and 15 weekly. My water changes seem to be able to keep up with coral demand thus far. i feed heavy and aggresive detritus removal every other week with WC.

 

[mcgyvr]

carbon dosing (vinegar/vodka)

 

[anavarchus]

I had a similar problem when I moved into the new house. Due to being wore out from moving, I was too lazy to add more than a very little sand to the tank(s). Nitrate became hard to manage. Ultimately, we added more sand and took to doing large (~20%) water changes every weekend. We also beefed up skimming and changed all filter media every other week. Our nitrates are now BDL (even with regular fish & coral feeding). It takes some diligence but it can be done. We don't really chase a number but were starting to fight some nuisance algae, hence the increased maintenance.

 

[Azedenkae]

If you want to make a true difference to nitrates, best way long term is Marine Pure.

It allows for denitrifying bacteria to populate, and they will take care of your excess nitrates.

 

[Azedenkae]

I have the block in my tank and yeah, makes it very painless. :3 No carbon dosing, no polyfilter, no chemical filter media of any sorts, no cutting feeding (you should NEVER do this anyways, unless it was excessive originally).

 

[fishchef]

Just my opinion/observations. Are you using Poly-Bio-Marine polyfilter? If you are then you don't need carbon since your also using Purigen. Purigen is a carbon substitute. Also if it is PBM don't use it as primary filter. I'm not that familiar with Chemi-pure Elite, but are you using it to control phosphates? I'm not seeing any PO4 levels. You could do 25% bi-weekly partials and the skimmer should make a big difference. Your NO3 really isn't that high. LPS and leathers tend to like higher nitrates.

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

I have been going crazy over Nitrates for almost a year now. My nitrates were up around your numbers 30+. 2 weeks ago I started dosing with Red Sea NOPOX. Today my nitrates are down to around 8ppm. The stuff seems to work very well. I also have a good Eshopps skimmer that pulls a lot of stuff out of my tank. Do a youtube search of NOPOX and see what you think. I'm definitely going to keep dosing. I didn't want to get into vodka/vinegar, and I trust Red Sea products. Good luck...

 

[QuiGonJay]

Thanks for the advice. Will check out the products you mentioned. Skimmer is only 2 weeks in so maybe it hasn't kicked into high gear yet.

 

[eddiereefs]

carbon dosing... one month to zero in my 29. somthing that u wouldnt believe unless uve seen it for urself

 

[QuiGonJay]

Gotta say, carbon dosing scares me, I am afraid I will screw something up. That'll be my last resort I guess.

 

[jason2459]

If you want to make a true difference to nitrates, best way long term is Marine Pure.

It allows for denitrifying bacteria to populate, and they will take care of your excess nitrates.

Ceramic and aluminosilicate doesn't sound like I would want that product in my tank.

So, its an area for bacteria to grow. That part sounds good.

I would still stick to vinegar dosing to grow my bacteria. Very simple, effective, cheap, free food directly and grows free food.

Edit: plus along with greatly reducing nitrates carbon dosing does help reduce or maintain lower phosphates as well.

 

[Azedenkae]

Ceramic and aluminosilicate doesn't sound like I would want that product in my tank.

So, its an area for bacteria to grow. That part sounds good.

I would still stick to vinegar dosing to grow my bacteria. Very simple, effective, cheap, free food directly and grows free food.

Mhm, that was a huge worry before actually, and there was a huge thread on it. Turned out it was nothing to really worry about - or at least nothing conclusive to worry about.

As with any biological filter media the bacteria needs to be fed, but that is the easy part. The hard part is creating large anaerobic areas for denitrifying bacteria to colonize, which this product does very well- more so than anything else I have seen, including live rock.

 

[jason2459]

Mhm, that was a huge worry before actually, and there was a huge thread on it. Turned out it was nothing to really worry about - or at least nothing conclusive to worry about.

As with any biological filter media the bacteria needs to be fed, but that is the easy part. The hard part is creating large anaerobic areas for denitrifying bacteria to colonize, which this product does very well- more so than anything else I have seen, including live rock.

I would be interested in reading that thread and seeing who the contributors are. I'm kind of selective in who I will believe online.

I haven't found housing bacteria to be an issue either. Feeding them specifically to reduce nitrates with out spiking phosphates is difficult. Carbon dosing solved that problem for me and allows me to continue to over feed my fish which helps feed my various other critters.

 

[Azedenkae]

I would be interested in reading that thread and seeing who the contributors are. I'm kind of selective in who I will believe online.

I haven't found housing bacteria to be an issue either. Feeding them specifically to reduce nitrates with out spiking phosphates is difficult. Carbon dosing solved that problem for me and allows me to continue to over feed my fish which helps feed my various other critters.

Glad that it is working for you mate. With the Marine Pure I didn't need to touch carbon dosing so can't really say much about it, but hey if it works, that's great!

Oh and the thread is in the Chemistry forum, somewhere. Shouldn't be too hard to find though.

 

[jason2459]

First, the tank parms to get them out of the way. Top off is RODI always:

Tank - 45 gallon, 9 months old, Salinity: 1/026, temp 80, Ca: 400, KH: normally 9, now 7.5 (very odd, not sure why), MG 1400, PH 7.9/8, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 20-30 depending on the test kit (been trying to get this down for two months). About 50 pounds live rock. Water changes every other week - about 10%.

Inhabitants: 2 small ocellaris clowns, 3 small pajama cardinals, CUC, 2 pep shrimp, xenia, mushroom coral, tree coral, gorgonian, leather coral, duncan frag, candy cane frag, zoa frag.

The nitrates have been at 20 to 30 for the past 3 months. I've done some research and tried the following:

* Adding polyfilter to catch particles and replacing weekly.
* Cut feeding to every other day - only what they eat in less than a minute.
* No feeding of coral (other than some mysis spot feeding once a week for the LPS frags.
* Drain all frozen food before feeding.
* Added skimmer (2 weeks ago)
* Added ChemiPure Elite and Purigen to media baskets (2 weeks ago)
* Replace remaining carbon bag every month.

Simply put, nothing yet has really made a difference. But, other than my issues with a tree coral (see Soft Coral discussion thread if you have any advice - I need it!), all my other inhabitants seem quite happy. Even the LPS frags are growing. No real algae issues either.

Should I just relax (still keep skimming and what not of course!) and not stress? Maybe this is just how my tank rolls? Should I be occaisionally giving my filter feeders some marine snow or something? Right now, I'm so paranoid to feed anything to add to the nitrate issue, I wonder if I'm keeping it too lean.

Clearly saltwater tanks are not a good hobby for worry prone neurotic guys like me. . . .

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

Relax. 20 nitrate isn't an issue unless it's an issue. Meaning:

1. Do you have a nuance algae growth where you don't want it? ATS can help grow it where you do want it.

2. Do you have inverts visibly having bad reactions like spines falling off an urchin. Browning. STN. Bleaching. Etc. Large water change can quickly help an carbon dosing can help pretty quick as well but is more s good long term solution to maintain lower nutrients

All your numbers look fine to me. Especial if everything looks good.

I would stop using the polyfilyer. Good to have on hand for emergencies when you think there maybe metals in the water. Other wise kind of an expensive GAC.

Water changes are good. Stay consistent with them.

Rinsing frozen food doesn't really help anything unless it's for reasons like your skimmer overflows if you don't.

Skimmers are good especially if you do start carbon dosing.

I think chemipure elite is a waste of money for some resins that don't work in saltwater and not nearly enough gfo making it expensive GAC. I'm not familiar with purigen. I would just get some bulk lignite or rox .8 GAC. Then only add GFO only if your PO4 is high like above .08. If under .08 an ATS or carbon dosing can help from there.

Do not cut feeding that much. Feed at least once a day. No need for snow. Feed your fish and they will shnow all over your corals. Target feed what needs target fed is fine. I feed my fish about 5 times a day. That and they feed my corals.

Relax. Use your eyes.

 

[jason2459]

Glad that it is working for you mate. With the Marine Pure I didn't need to touch carbon dosing so can't really say much about it, but hey if it works, that's great!

Oh and the thread is in the Chemistry forum, somewhere. Shouldn't be too hard to find though.

This is the thread I found in the chemistry forum and read through it.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931

I found nothing in that thread that would lead me to believe it's 100% safe especially since I have leather corals.

If anything it assures me to still stay away from any media that contains any form of aluminum.

It also seems you have a commercial bias for this product.

 

[Azedenkae]

This is the thread I found in the chemistry forum and read through it.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931

I found nothing in that thread that would lead me to believe it's 100% safe especially since I have leather corals.

If anything it assures me to still stay away from any media that contains any form of aluminum.

It also seems you have a commercial bias for this product.

Of course I have a commercial bias towards this product. I have a commercial bias towards every product, I sell pretty much all of them. Or I can, anyways.

Not that it matters here, because I can't sell most of you guys anything anyways. +.+

Anyways, the levels that is reported is way below any that is reported as dangerous for corals that have been tested, so there is no indication that the amount of aluminium measured in a tank with Marine Pure is dangerous to corals, at least in terms of published papers.

Of course, that isn't to say it 100% doesn't harm corals, but there's nothing to say that it does. So just like any other product, really.

 

[jason2459]

Of course I have a commercial bias towards this product. I have a commercial bias towards every product, I sell pretty much all of them. Or I can, anyways.

Not that it matters here, because I can't sell most of you guys anything anyways. +.+

Anyways, the levels that is reported is way below any that is reported as dangerous for corals that have been tested, so there is no indication that the amount of aluminium measured in a tank with Marine Pure is dangerous to corals, at least in terms of published papers.

Of course, that isn't to say it 100% doesn't harm corals, but there's nothing to say that it does. So just like any other product, really.

You should state that you have a commercial, business, or selling interest because yes it does matter.

I would say there were reports of elevated levels in coordination with this specific product and Randy has provided prior cause for alarm in testing other media with similar content and claims of being 100% safe.

So, no thank you to any product that has any form of aluminum in it until 100% proven safe from a 3rd party and thoroughly peer reviewed.

There is a difference between claiming 100% safe at specific ranges. This hasn't been shown to be safe at any range yet.

 

[QuiGonJay]

'Use your eyes' Thanks jason, that's good advice (and hard to do when you are new to saltwater). Regarding your questions, there is no nuisance algae and the only negative reaction is a tree coral which I am pretty sure has nothing to do with nitrates though it no idea what's up. I am probably trying to hard to fix something my tank doesn't really consider an issue. I will keep skimming and water changes and slowly ramp up feeding a bit more and see if numbers stay the same. Since chemo pure doesn't seem to have impacted things much, probably won't reinvest in that next time I clean the media baskets.