No Water Change's

[Reefin' Dude]

the point is that the poo still needs to be picked up.

food goes in, poo goes out. the same is true for our systems. if food is going in, then there must be an equal amount of material coming out. our systems do not have the ability to destroy matter.

G~

 

[KafudaFish]

the point is that the poo still needs to be picked up.

food goes in, poo goes out. the same is true for our systems. if food is going in, then there must be an equal amount of material coming out. our systems do not have the ability to destroy matter.

G~

Just our money and our sanity.

 

[SantaMonica]

I love no-waterchange systems. Actually I'm now on to a no-maintenance system. I guess top-off counts a little though. But the algae put all the carbon, vitamins and amino's into the water, like in the ocean, and removing the algae (or feeding it back to the fish) takes out all the nutrients from circulation.

I probably need a bit more lighting than my two Ecoxotic 48's strips though, because growth is less than it was in the 90 with 300 mh, even though the 90 had no waterchange for 4 years. The two 48" strips have a definite area beneath them which grows, but if you move left or right a few inches, growth stops.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

what you are saying is that families in big cities should:

work at home,
never open our windows,
not have running water,
collect all of our wastes and spread it on our floor,
try and grow plants that we need to eat to supplement out one hamburger and vitamin pill per week, by growing the plants from our wastes,
all of this in a two room house.

instead of:

working at home,
opening the windows
have running water
eat what we want and or need

i think i would prefer the second scenario.

G~

 

[jda]

A more poignant example might be Dr. Shmek's assertion that sand beds are limitless sink holes that are capable of just absorbing and absorbing. This has led to many tanks getting what he also calls "old tank syndrome" when in fact the sand is just bogged down with garbage when a simple, slow and methodical cleaning can keep them in harmony for years. Expanding this same notion to the whole tank is not much of a stretch. A tank is a toilet that needs flushed from time to time.

 

[power boat jim]

I love no-waterchange systems. Actually I'm now on to a no-maintenance system. I guess top-off counts a little though. But the algae put all the carbon, vitamins and amino's into the water, like in the ocean, and removing the algae (or feeding it back to the fish) takes out all the nutrients from circulation.

I probably need a bit more lighting than my two Ecoxotic 48's strips though, because growth is less than it was in the 90 with 300 mh, even though the 90 had no waterchange for 4 years. The two 48" strips have a definite area beneath them which grows, but if you move left or right a few inches, growth stops.

Im curious as to what you mean by "no maintenance" does it mean- No skimmer cleaning, no glass cleaning, no bulb changes, no cleaning of pumps or power heads, no testing of water, no feeding of fish, no storming the tank to remove trapped detritus and of course no water changes or dosing.

 

[The Cheese]

No one does water changes in the ocean, the ocean isn't full over fish poo. Biological filtration comes into play (yes there's a large dilution factor but the fish have been pooing in the sea for 1000's of years).

Why is it so difficult to think that a fish tank can't work off the same principals.

I have a 30gal that has had 2 water changes in the past 12 months. Not because they were needed just because I felt like changing some water one Saturday afternoon.

I record all of my parameters since day 1 and can confirm that my NO2 and NH4 have been 0ppm, I use mature rock so no cycle. Since then my NO3 was at 20ppm until I got the skimmer working efficiently then is came down to 2ppm slowly coming down further to 0.2ppm which is where is has been for 6month.

All Calc, KH and Mag are dosed with Seachem powders. I've never lost any SPS infact they grow pretty fast but I do struggle with things like Xenia and mushrooms i'm not sure whether this is due to low nutrient of high light levels.

 

[SantaMonica]

Yes that is what I mean. Except I topoff kalk, and sometimes dose cal, alk, and str.

 

[power boat jim]

Yes that is what I mean. Except I topoff kalk, and sometimes dose cal, alk, and str.

Good luck dosing stuff you arent measuring for, I dont think a tank has a prayer doing things the way you describe. The way you describe there will be no input of food and no export of nutrients. That means whatever the tank starts with that is all it will ever have. For this to be successful it would have to defy the laws of physics.

Please tell me Im missing something.

 

[jinks]

No one does water changes in the ocean, the ocean isn't full over fish poo. Biological filtration comes into play (yes there's a large dilution factor but the fish have been pooing in the sea for 1000's of years).

Why is it so difficult to think that a fish tank can't work off the same principals.

Its not the same principle. You cast aside the the massively larger amount of bio filtration and the water volume and only kept the fact that no one does water changes because it was beneficial to your argument. You cant pick and chose what numbers you want in your equation and then call it accurate. That's not even mentioning the countless other factors coming into play with the ocean and the fact that it has had 3.5+ billion years to fine tune itself. Im not saying that there is no way that it could ever work just that most of the time, long term, it wont. Go ask people who have 10+ year old tanks and see how many of them dont do water changes. I would bet you the number is very low.

 

[Dashiki]

No one does water changes in the ocean, the ocean isn't full over fish poo. Biological filtration comes into play (yes there's a large dilution factor but the fish have been pooing in the sea for 1000's of years).

Why is it so difficult to think that a fish tank can't work off the same principals.

I have a 30gal that has had 2 water changes in the past 12 months. Not because they were needed just because I felt like changing some water one Saturday afternoon.

I record all of my parameters since day 1 and can confirm that my NO2 and NH4 have been 0ppm, I use mature rock so no cycle. Since then my NO3 was at 20ppm until I got the skimmer working efficiently then is came down to 2ppm slowly coming down further to 0.2ppm which is where is has been for 6month.

All Calc, KH and Mag are dosed with Seachem powders. I've never lost any SPS infact they grow pretty fast but I do struggle with things like Xenia and mushrooms i'm not sure whether this is due to low nutrient of high light levels.

If you plan to keep your tank like the ocean and do no water changes I suggest you go scuba diving and find a spot approx the size of your tank and look at how many fish occupy that area.

If you have a 30 gallon tank you will be surprised that most likely you would have 1 fish. Then you might be able to go a long time without water changes.

 

[power boat jim]

If you plan to keep your tank like the ocean and do no water changes I suggest you go scuba diving and find a spot approx the size of your tank and look at how many fish occupy that area.

If you have a 30 gallon tank you will be surprised that most likely you would have 1 fish. Then you might be able to go a long time without water changes.

In addition, the part most people forget to take into account is in that area that holds 30 gallons of water probably 50,000 gallons of water will pass through that area on any given day due to currents, tides and wave action.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

No one does water changes in the ocean, the ocean isn't full over fish poo. Biological filtration comes into play (yes there's a large dilution factor but the fish have been pooing in the sea for 1000's of years).

Why is it so difficult to think that a fish tank can't work off the same principals.

I have a 30gal that has had 2 water changes in the past 12 months. Not because they were needed just because I felt like changing some water one Saturday afternoon.

I record all of my parameters since day 1 and can confirm that my NO2 and NH4 have been 0ppm, I use mature rock so no cycle. Since then my NO3 was at 20ppm until I got the skimmer working efficiently then is came down to 2ppm slowly coming down further to 0.2ppm which is where is has been for 6month.

All Calc, KH and Mag are dosed with Seachem powders. I've never lost any SPS infact they grow pretty fast but I do struggle with things like Xenia and mushrooms i'm not sure whether this is due to low nutrient of high light levels.

one word, abyss.

it is kinda hard to grow algae at several hundred meters down.

where is our tanks abyss, if it is not the siphon?

G~

 

[The Cheese]

There are many people who don't do water changes, most of which don't admit it on forums for fear of getting bombarded by people telling them how to run their tanks.

Dashiki - I'm sorry but your argument is rubbish, if nutrient levels are as low as NSW then it makes no difference.

Powerboat Jim - argument is more valid but should be aimed at corals receiving trace elements that can't be tested for and dosed easily. That being said, if you run a calcium reactor which breaks down coral bones this returns pretty much everything back to the tank that stony corals require.

Which brings me to another point, do you believe fish only with LR require water changes?

 

[ivar85]

Run your tank like you want. If it makes you happy, others opinions doesn't matter.

 

[power boat jim]

There are many people who don't do water changes, most of which don't admit it on forums for fear of getting bombarded by people telling them how to run their tanks.

Dashiki - I'm sorry but your argument is rubbish, if nutrient levels are as low as NSW then it makes no difference.

Powerboat Jim - argument is more valid but should be aimed at corals receiving trace elements that can't be tested for and dosed easily. That being said, if you run a calcium reactor which breaks down coral bones this returns pretty much everything back to the tank that stony corals require.

Which brings me to another point, do you believe fish only with LR require water changes?

I cant answer that not knowing what type filtration is being used and how heavily stocked the tank is. It certainly would not require much in the way of trace element replacment. Also Dosing for Alk and Ca are two very basic parameters that SantaMonica said he would dose but not test for. That is why I answered the way I did. It had nothing to do with testing for trace element and he did not say he was running a reactor.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Do you test your newly mixed water change water for the exact levels of trace elements that's needed by your aquarium?

You would determine this by examining your depletion rate over time. I doubt anyone is doing this unless you have access to sophisticated lab equipment.

If you don't, you're dosing without measuring at every water change. Synthetic sea salt composition between all the makers can vary greatly between batches. If you simply trust that salt companies are putting in appropriate amounts you have no rational leg to stand on if you're accusing someone else of dosing without measuring by following the directions on the bottles of trace element supplements made by the same companies.

 

[power boat jim]

Do you test your newly mixed water change water for the exact levels of trace elements that's needed by your aquarium?

You would determine this by examining your depletion rate over time. I doubt anyone is doing this unless you have access to sophisticated lab equipment.

If you don't, you're dosing without measuring at every water change. Synthetic sea salt composition between all the makers can vary greatly between batches. If you simply trust that salt companies are putting in appropriate amounts you have no rational leg to stand on if you're accusing someone else of dosing without measuring by following the directions on the bottles of trace element supplements made by the same companies.

Read my last post that will clarify what I ment by dosing without measuring.

 

[The Cheese]

I answered how I did as you made reference to my 30gal tank not SantaMonicas method.

Each to there own I say, whatever works for you. I for one wouldn't be back on here asking for help if I had a tank crash and I thought it was related to lack of water changes, that being said there is no reason I would have a tank crash for this reason.

 

[power boat jim]

Never mind, post deleted.