non drilled owners i need your plumbing opinions

[bonblasted420]

ok so here goes I got this 72 bow that I want to eventually add a sump to but I don't want to drill the back, my question is for people using overflow boxes and pipe designs to remove water from the display.

what do you all do when the power goes and you loose syphon and the power comes on but no one is home? or better say no one knowledgeable enough to reset everything ie your workin and the roommate don't got a clue...

ive been looking around for someone out there who as remedied this situation that scares the hell out of me and found zilch.
looking for some sort of circuit breaker to add into the stand between the pump and power bar so that if the power should go and syphon breaks I don't want that pump kicking back in and draining the sump and flooding the display. but at the same time keep the rest of the unit running (skimmer, heater, power heads in display, lighting for corals) so that when I return from work I could reset the syphon myself and turn the sump pump back on.

or even some sort of pump for the over flow? I know and seen problems with this idea where if one of the pumps beomes underpowered it will flood any way. then I see these people out there using aquaclear filters as boxes but that's just like what I mentioned above with the pump in the box...

ergh why me and my paranoia, after waking up in the middle of the night just to witness a skimmer flood because the output got clogged overnight (don't ask)
:headwally:

 

[patsfan1130]

I used a lifereef many, many moons ago on a 75 for nearly 5 years. Never once did it break siphon....

My brother has been running one on his 72g bow for 10 years or so and has never had it lose siphon.

It's the only external overflow I would ever consider.

 

[apexkeeper]

Before I decided to drill my tank I had an electronic float switch that cut the power to the return pump if the water in the return section of my sump dropped to a certain level. For example if the siphon breaks and the pump keeps pumping water to the display tank it would quickly drain the return section and the pump would shut down so at max only a few gallons of water could overfill the display tank. It gave me peace of mind while running a HOB overflow box.

 

[bonblasted420]

still a little lost on the overflow box side of things,
when you mean syphon wont break does that mean the water will stay locked in the u-pipe until the sump pump kicks back in?
or does it mean it will drain off what ever is in the internal part of the box and then suck air into the u-pipe?
these are my main brain teasers, I have only seen one system with a box and that's at the lfs and I don't usually stick around long enough to get full details because I tend to rush and forget questions lol.

edit** reason for me asking these is that weve had power outages for a good few hours and even into a day or so. also even mild outages like for 20 min with rolling outages to conserve power.

 

[patsfan1130]

still a little lost on the overflow box side of things,
when you mean syphon wont break does that mean the water will stay locked in the u-pipe until the sump pump kicks back in?
or does it mean it will drain off what ever is in the internal part of the box and then suck air into the u-pipe?
these are my main brain teasers, I have only seen one system with a box and that's at the lfs and I don't usually stick around long enough to get full details because I tend to rush and forget questions lol.

That's exactly what I am saying The siphon does not break meaning when power is lost...Water remains in the U-tube. When power resumes...The siphon goes back to business as usual. Anything is possible...I am not saying a Lifereef is failsafe. Research it though..You will be hard pressed to find many reviews of a Lifereef overflow failing.

 

[miatawnt2b]

I'm very happy with my eshopps overflow. However with any external overflow, you need a failsafe backup. I use a JBJ ATO and put the float valve on the INSIDE overflow box at the top. That way if it ever looses siphon, gets blocked, or if the siphon slows below what the return pump sends to the display it shuts down.

 

[SGT_York]

adding an aqualifter pump or small tubing down to a powerhead will provide enough suction to restart the overflow in case of a siphon loss.

 

[Ratpack]

One key to not losing siphon is to make sure when the powere goes out, that the U tube ends are still submerged in water. I added some pvc pipe to the bulkheads in my overflow so that the water level is raised in the back chamber so that both ends are submerged and 5 years later, no siphon break yet (knock on wood as I know anything can happen).

 

[PeTe PoLyP]

I have witnessed the CPR stop and start at least 50 times without breaking siphon. They're designed this way. If you're still worried about it an aqualifter will do the trick. Dr. Tim's is fairly cheap for around $20

 

[Mpy]

So here is a rudimentary sketch up of mine. I haven't lost siphon with it yet, and I kept having to switch off my return pump for fussing with some LEDs I had. I added an airline to the top of the siphon and attached it to a small circulation pump in my DT; so even if it does break siphon, that will re-establish it(an aqualifter could work too). I have the tank side sitting in a 4" pvc pipe with a cap that has teeth cut into the top of it.

Ill post an actual picture when I get home tonight.

 

[asudavew]

Also, keep your return pump in a separate chamber in the sump.

Keep that area small so if the siphon is lost there is a limited amount of water that can get returned to the DT; thereby avoiding water overflowing from your DT.

 

[PeTe PoLyP]

Also, keep your return pump in a separate chamber in the sump.

Keep that area small so if the siphon is lost there is a limited amount of water that can get returned to the DT; thereby avoiding water overflowing from your DT.

Normally this is where people put their auto topoff. So depending on the setup the water added to the sump can vary. The overflow box is engineered to not break siphon. The best way to ensure you won't have a problem is to have a back up to fill the overflow to restart it. There has been several methods explained in this thread on how to do this.

 

[viggen]

Like stated the u tube must have both ends submerged when power goes out. Most overflow boxes are setup this way now however some are not.

My qt tank in the garage has a external overflow with a single u tube..... Hasn't lost suction and has been running for a few years. I think most of the time when people have problems is from the overflow boxes that loose siphon, that use to be the only option.

Keeping snails and algae out of the lift tune is important. I just keep a few foot section of clear tubing next to the tank incase it looses siphon and I need to restart it.

 

[fasteray]

Sooner or later either more water will pump up then siphon down or vicea versa. If you pump more then you are siphoning your pump will suck air 24/7. I don't know how you would restart a siphon once it gets air in it. If you do figure it out I would be curious to know how you do it. I use holes in the side of the tank down to the sump then all you can pump up will drain right down.
Ray Ingram

 

[viggen]

Oops.... Meant to state ..... the boxes that loose siphon when power gets cut are the ones that both ends of the lift tube aren't submerged when the power is off. One or both ends out of water when power is cut will loose siphon.

These tubes can get air in them when the power cuts out.... And when the power is turned back on the air will get pushed out. It depends on the amount of air that's in the lift tube and also I think the speed of the water flowing through the tube.

In regards to pumping more into the tank vs drained down. The flow will equalize as long as you are not pushing more water into the tank then what the lift tube can flow and also what the drain can take that goes to the sump. No different vs a internal overflow or one with holes drilled on the back of a tank. If more water is pumped then what the drains can take then it will overflow.......

I do agree, internal overflow is safer and is how my main tank is setup...... However external can work and as we all know has additional risks involved

 

[Biotopes]

If you use a PVC overflow it's not siphoning the water, its overflowing. Thus the name So it will automatically restart once the water rises above the inlet pipe. That in itself I think is cool (and a reason to use PVC overflows) because it simulates minor tide movements, which gives an overall more realistic feel to the tank.

 

[Biotopes]

So here is a rudimentary sketch up of mine. I haven't lost siphon with it yet, and I kept having to switch off my return pump for fussing with some LEDs I had. I added an airline to the top of the siphon and attached it to a small circulation pump in my DT; so even if it does break siphon, that will re-establish it(an aqualifter could work too). I have the tank side sitting in a 4" pvc pipe with a cap that has teeth cut into the top of it.

Ill post an actual picture when I get home tonight.

Just to add to this, the reason it will restart is because the water in the top U-pipe (that goes over the glass) is equalized, and the weight of the water trying to go down on each side pulls the water on each side, and it won't come out (as long as the sale on the check valve is perfectly airtight, any leak and it won't restart.)

:beer:

 

[Mpy]

Unfortunately i cannot get a good picture of my rig as i did a good job of getting my tank close to the wall. :rollface:

Just to add to this, the reason it will restart is because the water in the top U-pipe (that goes over the glass) is equalized, and the weight of the water trying to go down on each side pulls the water on each side, and it won't come out (as long as the sale on the check valve is perfectly airtight, any leak and it won't restart.)

:beer:

The reason it restarts is because the siphon wont empty itself. The outlet is above where the inlet is. the pea trap keeps water in the bottom section of the pipe before the outflow. the siphon wont drain lower than where the outflow branches off from the stand pipe.

The airline is attached to a small power head and since it is in the display tank it cant suck air in to break siphon, but the powerhead keeps an air pocket from forming in the top u-joint.

The advantage of having such a deep overflow box(effectivly...) is that if the siphon isnt keeping up with the pump the water height will increase, and then the increase in water pressure will increase the flow through the siphon. so it ends up having a variable flow aspect to it.

 

[Tzwizzle]

Personally HOB overflows make me super nervous. I had a few close calls on my old tank. Over time algae and coralline built up on the teeth of the overflow box, raising the water level in the tank to the rim. I Also had hair algae growing inside the siphon tube. This created air bubbles in the top of the tube and the algae was nearly impossible to get out.