non photosynthetic tank

[Whalehead9]

I am very interested in converting my 40 reef to a non photosynthetic reef. I am looking for people who have tried and either succeded or failed. At first I will go with easy stuff and then ramp up to sclero's and dendro's fi all goes well with the sea fans and sea apples other easy stuff.

Any and all please give me some info

 

[dendro982]

Tried, not failed yet, but could be better.

Thoughts and observations:

- think about what coral do you want (or what are available or affordable) - gorgonians, chilis, sun corals (we leave out the scleros and dendros for now, my systems are not good for them),

- amount of feeding required, type of the food: I'm giving more, but Jens Kallmeyer feeds 3x daily, details are
here . Frozen unwashed food, especially usual homemade blend tend to foul water more, then dry food.

- Filtration and skimming should be able to remove excess and keep water more or less clean. I'm keeping filtration off during feeding, most other keepers - not.

- No sand bed - will be polluted quickly, bare bottom.

- Flow - the shape of tank is important:
the best from mine was 5g hexagon with power filter, but without skimming...
next was 6g nano cube, with side laminar flow, gire tank should work too, or cylindrical with laminar side flow.
rectangular tanks were not good, the mutual positioning of the corals and powerheads is a constant headache.

- moving LR and biomedia to the dark sump helped with bristle worms control and cleaner rock.

Photos of my tanks are here.

You can find more information from other keepers either by coral name, tank, feeding, forums or the same, but deep water or non-photosynthetic tank (obvious ).

Other keepers are:
- Dendronephtya study group at RC - big tanks, dedicated, not a common nano-reef level.
- Danny Dame's tank, Holland. http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5026.
- GARF 1, 2, 3.
- nano-reef forums: 1, 2, 3, 4.
- some articles: 1.
At the bottom of Danny Dame page are links to other keepers presentations, pdf, especially Daniela's sun corals.

There is a lot of detailed information on the web, only all is scattered.
Good luck!

 

[Whalehead9]

So what I'm thinking about for this tank is live rock set up with laminar flow with a few koralia pumps. Lighting will be one 30w Flourecent tube. Heavy skimming and fuge filled with chaeto. NO3 and PO4 controlled with vodka method on a peristaltic pump.

As for animals, easy to start sun corals, dendrophyllia, digorgonia(red and Yellow), fancy cucumbers and sea apples, feather dusters, chilli corals, and xmas corals(the scientific name escapes me- and not the worms).

Feeding is most likely to be done with live baby brine, live rotifers and an algea suspension of some sort(frozen or live). I know that frequent feeding is absolutely important and I will attempt to build a feeding contraption to food to be drippedover a longer period of time.

I have done many reefs and now I'm looking for something really challenging. I think this will fit the bill.

 

[shabreeson]

if you want a challenge get a carnation(best bet on one that lives is Live aquaria divers den), any fish in mind for this tank.live aquaria also sells sea fans-difficult to expert only(similar to gorgonia that you are getting)

I think the cucumbers and sea apples aren't worth the risk of a tank wipe out

 

[dendro982]

Yes, this will be a challenge to make a setup, that will work for them.

You know, it's really too risky to have sea apple in the tank, but these two were completely harmless in my tank: filter feeding Pentacta anceps and sand-sifting golden cucumber, mistaken for a small yellow filter-feeder, Colochus robustus (sp?).

The filter feeding cucumbers will eat the same food, as all the others, look good and will "lick the fingers":

and sand-sifter will need a fine sand, smaller, than this:

This is how they looked at the store:

Another thing: my chili corals are opening mostly in the dark. In unlit tank they are open almost all the day long. Your could be different, could be not - consider this too.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

[yrema]

Interesting post!

dendro> those are nice specimens! how old is your tank?

 

[dendro982]

They were lost in the tank crash, when the Haliclona blue sponge declined, followed by the death the sea slug Chromodoris magnifica, and then - eviscerated (likely Holothuria) sea cucumber.

This is why I told that they are safe - no evisceration at all, to the end.

I had them for 4 months, moving from 5g hex to the bigger 20g long tank. Always opened to feed, as long as the food was present in the tank.

Most others tank's inhabitants are alive even now, year later.

The longer thread with description of the life of my cukes is here

Photo ID for sea cucumbers: link

p.S. If you mean how old was tank for being suitable for cukes - it was assembled after their purchase, from the older tanks components. The oldest components are since Feb 06, pink cuke arrived Jul 06. I'm moving content from tank to tank, time from time, trying to improve settings.

 

[Whalehead9]

Thanks for the links everyone. This has proven a most successful thread. I thought I would get flamed immediately.

This will be a fishless aquarium. I am thinking about housing either a peacock mantis shrimp as the tanks main inhabitant or some equally strange invert.

as for the echinoderm wipeout senario, without fish the toxic eggs should not be a problem. I just need to keep an eye on the tank and try to keep it as clean as possible

 

[Whalehead9]

Anyone have luck with blue colonial tunicates or any tunicates fot that matter?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Interesting thread.

Slap Rock or epoxy and sand bottom would help make a much more natural looking display.

 

[yrema]

I have lots of tunicates in my tank, and they seem to reproduce fast. no experience on blue squirts though.

btw, I'd like to try this too sometime. Would a tube anemone be fine with sponges and other non-photosynthetic corals? (apart, of course.)

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11172881#post11172881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendro982

- moving LR and biomedia to the dark sump helped with bristle worms control and cleaner rock.

What is the problem with bristle worms? Do they tend to attack or damage non-photo corals and gorgonians?

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11175688#post11175688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shabreeson
if you want a challenge get a carnation(best bet on one that lives is Live aquaria divers den), any fish in mind for this tank.live aquaria also sells sea fans-difficult to expert only(similar to gorgonia that you are getting)

I think the cucumbers and sea apples aren't worth the risk of a tank wipe out

First off, I'm never really certain as to what a "carnation coral" is. If you look in the soft coral section of Live Aquaria, you'll notice that carnation coral is listed as both a Dendronepthya and a Neospongodes. Although they are in the same family, they are rather different in that the latter is photosynthetic. Secondly, if you're referring to the Dendronepthya "carnations," I would not recommend that as a "challenge." More of a waste of money for someone who hasn't experience in non-photo corals. After reading many of the experiences people have had with these corals, I really wonder if there ever will be any real success with them. Perhaps the only way would be if someone can manage to propagate some that are better suited for aquarium life. Captive propagated ones likely have a much better chance than ocean caught.

 

[dendro982]

Blue turnicates or sponges:
This one didn't lasted long, months only:

This is much more resilient:

Other turnicates:
This orange and red sea squirts did quite well, but no growth, until were covered by bryopsis and damaged during cleaning:

Don't have the tube anemone, but from readings there should be no problem, as long as no direct contact. But I have condy anemone in tank with non-photosynthetic gorgonians and sclero, no problem.

Bristle worms are big problem in my well fed tanks, and filtration doesn't help much with removing their food. They don't bother gorgonians and sun coral, but crawl and hide between branches of the chili coral, around scleronephthya and at base of Tridacna, even attached to a half-shell.
The same - in the thread with Jens K. post, link I posted above.

More of this, when bristle worm finds way into the impeller area of the pump and dies there, chili closes for a long time, until the problem is discovered, pump cleaned, done water change and added carbon. And this is with no ammonia/nitrites in this tank, even after bristle worm's death.

 

[Whalehead9]

Actually the animal I am interested in is nephteis. I have heard very little on this animal and it is available from time to time, but the info on it not consistent or not at all.

 

[yrema]

Don't have the tube anemone, but from readings there should be no problem, as long as no direct contact. But I have condy anemone in tank with non-photosynthetic gorgonians and sclero, no problem.

thanks dendro.

btw, how about sun corals? what do you feed them?

 

[dendro982]

The same, as any other LPS coral - mouth-sized grocery seafood, and defrozen mysis and Ocean Plankton from aquarium store

Link to my half-baked page with photos and video, pictures intensive, be warned!

 

[shabreeson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11186155#post11186155 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
First off, I'm never really certain as to what a "carnation coral" is. If you look in the soft coral section of Live Aquaria, you'll notice that carnation coral is listed as both a Dendronepthya and a Neospongodes. Although they are in the same family, they are rather different in that the latter is photosynthetic. Secondly, if you're referring to the Dendronepthya "carnations," I would not recommend that as a "challenge." More of a waste of money for someone who hasn't experience in non-photo corals. After reading many of the experiences people have had with these corals, I really wonder if there ever will be any real success with them. Perhaps the only way would be if someone can manage to propagate some that are better suited for aquarium life. Captive propagated ones likely have a much better chance than ocean caught.

the only reason i suggested it as just a "challenge" is through the fact that Live aquaria at times have them in their divers den, if any corals are in divers den that means that they are healthy and have had them for a while with success, I would suggest that if you do take this route I would call Liveaquaria and ask how they took care of them.

 

[yrema]

wicked sun corals you got there, dendro! thanks for the link.