Opinions Please??

[TJDaddio]

Just set up a 37gal tall tank on Tuesday. Put live sand, base rock, water that my LFS makes themselves, 2 blue damsels and then 2 damsels I'm not too sure of, but they are almost clear with yellow strip on the top and a small black and turquoise stripe on their lower fins. I also have 10 red legged hermits. Anyways, fish were doing fine. Last night I did notice that one of my blue damsels was losing his color and was sort of hovering near the sand on the bottom - I knew that wasn't normal even though they have been changing color a tiny bit to blend into the rock or sand etc. This morning I woke up and he was floating . He lost alllll of his blue color - I thought at first it was one of my other damsels bc he had no color. I did notice he was a much paler blue when I first got him though, coincidence?

I'm going back to my LFS tomorrow to pick up my light fixture (Coralife T5 HO Quad Lamp with 2 LED Moonlights - can't wait), and that is when they were going to go over the water tests, water changes, etc with me. So I don't have any testing supplies right now to test my water. I did put a small strip thermometer on the outside of the tank and it was showing 77 degrees - is that normal or do I need a heater or ?

Tomorrow I will get whatever I need. Just sad I lost my first fish.



--- I am also a member of another reef tank site and posted the above, and the response I got was not exactly what I thought I would get by any means. Instead of advice, I was just scolded by one member who also said- "this is old school and we all know better than to hurt the fish". Really? I wasn't aware that I should already be a genius on this topic, THEN join this site to ask for advice.......If my goal was to kill fish, I wouldn't be here asking for help. This person did not even give me the "okay, you messed up but here is what to do now" approach, there was no advice or help given at all.....I appreciate advice and will always accept it, but complaining and giving heavy attitude back to someone who is just starting out and is there for HELP and ADVICE, just was downright rude and offputting. That is why I am HERE, ASKING QUESTIONS, and ASKING FOR ADVICE! Again this was on another similiar site, not Reef Central, which by the way, I am much happier with so far .

Same person also flipped out because they said I do not need a filter at all. I thought the point of these forums was to help eachother, not to throw a "I know everything" comment out, then not respond with any helpful info? What is that about? If your opinion is that you don't think I need a filter, tell me why, explain it to me, don't just throw a smart comment at me then not help or explain your opinion on the topic. My parents had a 250 gallon, and I have 5 different friends who all have tanks, and they ALL have filters. I don't even want to respond back because I feel it is one of those people who think they know everything and won't LISTEN or try to HELP anyone...I understand everyone has their own opinion, but I feel like most people don't have the knowledge to back these opinions they are soooo quick to dish out.

Does anyone have any ADVICE to add? All I have ever wanted is help and advice. Besides that wonderful conversation this morning, I'm still upset one of my fish died.... so not a good day so far...

 

[sponger0]

Return the fish and let the tank cycle. Thats what you need to do.

You shouldnt have any livestock in the tank unless it came on the live rock as that cant be avoided for the most part.

Wait a month before you add anything to the tank.

Get test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Wait a month.

Read during this month. Get a grasp on the basics of keeping a saltwater tank.

 

[sponger0]

Oh...and read stickies on here. They are a big help.

 

[TJDaddio]

What do you think about the whole - filter or no filter topic?

 

[mlott132]

Sounds like you rushed into this a little bit. Your tank needs to cycle first before you add any fish or inverts. That being said, I would recommend getting a test kit, heater, in-tank thermometer, and a refractometer. You need to be able to monitor the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and salinity of your water. Are you going to rely on your lfs for water? If not, invest in a RO/DI unit as well. I cannot see having a tank without a filter. Read the stickies there is a ton of useful information there. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[sponger0]

Your tank is your filter. Once again you need to read. I suggest start reading what is a cycle for a saltwater tank. You can have HOB filters but they arent really effective in SW tanks.

 

[PR_Reefer]

I'm new to the hobby too. I have been in for about 2 month. I did a few mystakes my self so dont worry. You are going to mess up and you just have to learn and not do it again.

There is a lot of stickies on what to do while you cycle. Read them while you wait on replys here.

Most important is understanding the cycle process, taking from 6-8 weeks and is best not to do with any fish. You may be using "LIVE SAND" but you need to build up the bacteria in it so it can process all the waste the tank is producing. But before that is essential to get a water test kit and if in the future u plan on getting coral I suggest u getting the expensive one that test for alk, cal and phos. It was a bad move getting 4 fish and I dont know what else to cycle tank because while it cycles: ph, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are going to be at toxic levels meaning it can kill any fish or anything in the tank.

I suggest that you should get a Quarantine tank, get all the fish in there with water from an already established tank from your lfs so u dont kill them. Leave them in there for about 4 weeks and these should be done with any fish u get to see if the are sick or have any dissease like ich.

Check your parameters in the Display tank and work from there. Start reading stickies and teach your self. There are many different ways on starting a cycle so you are going to get many different advices and expect people to get a little bit mad because you went all in withough reading and instructing your self on the what to do and what not to do.

Please provide more information about your tank as soon as you get the water test kit so people can help u further!!! By the way Welcome to Reef Cental!!!

 

[TJDaddio]

Thank you!

I actually went into the LFS to get the water and base rock and live sand, and did not plan on leaving with fish or hermits. The LFS said I could start with 4 damsels and 10 hermits (in 37gal tall tank), so I did just that.

I did read a LOT, but opinions vary soo much, and the LFS owner is very close friends with a friend of mine, so it wasn't that I was rushing and wanted fish asap.I'm just trying to learn as much as I can without hurting anything

 

[sponger0]

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can without hurting anything

To do this, read before you buy anything.

Couple more rules:

Nothing good happen fast

Be patient. If you dont know how, wait lol



IMO, your friend would no longer be a friend if I were you. He should know better than to sell a brand new setup and sell fish with it. Ammonia is extremely toxic to our livestock.

 

[TJDaddio]

:'(

 

[reeferstace]

LFSs want to sell you something. People here at Reef Central do not.

 

[AZBigJohn]

TJ, Welcome to RC. I am really new here, as well, and I cannot tell you how much I have learned in the few weeks I have been lurking and reading. I have had a swim-only salt tank, and I thought I was pretty tight on my tank care knowledge, but Reef Keeping is a totally different level.

I agree with most of the above; the people here at RC are great, and most are here to help, and grow the hobby/obsession/money-gobbling addiction.

 

[chad316]

Unfortunately, bad advice/habits generally start at a LFS because of the whole "sales" aspect. Not to say you can't find a store that is of very high quality though. I would rather have 10 differing opinion on RC than to have 1 sales person's (usually wrong) opinion. Definitely continue to read and post if you have any questions that arise.

 

[ken55]

No flames from me. Been there done that, got the same results.

There are many ways to skin a cat as the saying goes. But some ways are more efficient than others. The "old school" reference was that cycling with live fish used to be the norm. However, it is rather cruel to the fish. I haven't personally tested your water but I'm pretty sure the fish died of ammonia poisoning. The other three may also if you don't remove them. As the ammonia builds and spikes from the cycle the fish have nowhere to get away from it. I'm sure I will get flamed for this but the damage is likely already done. Might as well leave them now. Even if you return them it is likely that they will die at LFS in a day or two anyway. Let nature run it's course and don't use this method anymore. (p.s. the reason the LFS sold you the damsels is because they knew this would be the likely outcome and some people consider Damsels to be "disposable")

Other methods that don't involve live animals vary from using a dead shrimp from the grocery store, feeding flakes to fish that aren't there (called ghost feeding) and I've even heard of people putting a capful of ammonia into the tank. This is all reference for you now as your cycle has already started.

Get your test kits and start testing. You can watch as the ammonia builds and then starts to drop. As this happens the Nitrite will build and then start to drop. As this happens the Nitrate will build and start to drop. This will take 4 to 6 weeks (mayby longer) but when you get to zero you are ready for a handful of snails and crabs. Then guess what? Wait another week or two (testing again) before you add a fish. Only one fish at a time. The bacteria in your tank needs time to self adjust to the new bioload. I forget who said it to me but remember "We are bacteria farmers first, then reefkeepers".

I strongly recommend that you use a quarantine tank for your new fish. It would be a real bummer if you went through all this time and effort just to accidently add parasites or disease to your new system.

You can also expect a range of other issues to pop up in the next 6 months to a year. Diatom outbreaks, cyano, and a host of other algae issues. This is just part of a new tank becoming mature. You will have to deal with them as they come along.

Anyway, that's my opinion and two cents worth. Good Luck, keep reading and hope this helps.

 

[EllieSuz]

You'll get misguided advice on this forum too. If you hang around a while, you'll figure out whose advice is dependable. The permanent threads (stickies) at the top of this forum will give you an excellent start. The best part of reading those is that when you're done, your questions will be more specific and easier for us to make a meaningful contribution. If you fully understand the nitrogen cycle that all our aquariums go through (freshwater as well), you'll see why we don't cycle with fish anymore. This was a perfectly acceptable method in the old days, so your LFS has perhaps not kept in touch with changing methods.

Another reason we don't start a cycle with Damsels in particular, is that they become territorial and super aggressive as they mature. Once they're in there, it's not easy to catch them. For that reason alone, you should return the fish. As you develop a wish list for future fish additions, check here for compatibility. We need to research our purchases too before we end up with a bunch of fish killing each other and eating all our pretty corals. Plan on a total of four or five fish in a 37 gallon tank, depending on their adult size.

Most of us view our rock as all the filter we need. Bacteria living in all those nooks and crannies consume waste and multiply in sinc with the bio-load, as long as we don't add too much, too soon. Keeping this balance is easy to do with patience and the right kind of flow within the aquarium, which we do with internal powerheads. Now is the time to slow down, do some research, and take your LFS's advice with a grain of salt. Done right, this is a fascinating hobby and I think you're going to just love it.

 

[TJDaddio]

No flames from me. Been there done that, got the same results.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this but the damage is likely already done. Might as well leave them now. Even if you return them it is likely that they will die at LFS in a day or two anyway. Let nature run it's course and don't use this method anymore. (p.s. the reason the LFS sold you the damsels is because they knew this would be the likely outcome and some people consider Damsels to be "disposable")
QUOTE]

Thanks for this advice - The other thing that was mentioned above was that even while the tank was being setup, I used the drip method to acclimate the fish and even then, the one blue damsel didn't have the dark blue coloring. I feel maybe... possibly.. he was already stressed and was in shock. My other fish (knock on wood) seem to all be ding fine. My hermits are climbing all over the place and moving around everywhere. I hope maybe that one damsel was just in shock and the other 3 will make it.

Also, feed a little bit once a day? Or twice and feed less each of those two times? Which is better?

 

[sponger0]

Dont feed too much. The more food you add, the more chances you have of raising the ammonia.

Now if you truely wanna keep these damsels alive, best advice is to do water changes as the ammonia rises...hence you will need a water test. This will lengthen the time it takes your tank to cycle but you will have a better chance of keeping them alive.

A number of things could have happened to that one fish, but most of us are goign to lean towards ammonia poisoning.

Please ask questions. Information is going to be your most valuable tool. Learn while you can and then look for a plan of attack for as the direction you want the tank to go.

Now you may at some point find your damsels fighting...this is normal. They are known as mean little you know whats.

 

[ken55]

I believe in your situation the Three Minute rule is the best for feeding. Anything not comsumed in three minutes should be removed. Damsels are not picky eaters and will adapt to most any food. I would suggest floating flakes or pellets as any leftovers can easily be scooped out with a net.

I would strongly advise not to use any type of pre-formed frozen foods. Once the cube hits the water it wil start to melt away and you will have a lot that you won't be able to get back out.

 

[Cloudburst2000]

I don't think the fish store was necessarily trying to give you bad info for a sale. Yes, that does happen but alot of LFS, IMHO, still tell people to set up tanks based on 'old' methods that are not considered the best methods anymore. I think some LFS just don't keep up with the times. They just tell people the same thing they did 15 years ago. Times and accepted methods change in the marine hobby but alot of LFS seem to be stuck using older methods. Cycling a tank with fish used to be the accepted method years back, but now people realize that you don't need a fish for a source of ammonia to jump start the cycle. This is not healthy for the fish and can lead to death or long-term health issues. Damsels are quite hardy and will often survive a cycle which is why they were used in the past but they are mean little SOBs. People always regret adding them to the tank as it is difficult to add anything else when you already have a mean aggressive little turd in there, and they are a PITA to catch. Anyhoo, the accepted method of cycling a tank now is adding ammonia through either die-off from live rock, adding ammonia directly, chucking a piece of deli shrimp in the tank, etc. None of these methods involve live animals and they work so why use a live critter when you don't have to?