Overflow Problems?
- Thread starter jeffs86GT
- Start date
First off, a 1" hose can handle 50 gpm. We are talking about aquariums here so we deal in gph. The size of the hose is NOT the problem.
As for making it quieter. Without going with a stockman standpipe, I have had luck with adding a 90 degree elbow on the top of my standpipe and drilling 3 holes on the top of the elbow. This lets the water rise to almost the top of the elbow and still let plenty of air in. I am sure a stockman is quieter, but this was cheap (40 cents) and it helped a ton. It also helped with the surging level in the overflow.
As for making it quieter. Without going with a stockman standpipe, I have had luck with adding a 90 degree elbow on the top of my standpipe and drilling 3 holes on the top of the elbow. This lets the water rise to almost the top of the elbow and still let plenty of air in. I am sure a stockman is quieter, but this was cheap (40 cents) and it helped a ton. It also helped with the surging level in the overflow.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8273060#post8273060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MayoBoy
And yet, every other person with the exact same overflow doesn't have these problems when they use the larger drain pipe.
You somehow seem to keep ignoring that one little point...
Oops, I almost forgot
For a guy who is 21+ you sure do act like a child. Please just stop. He fixed the overflow and is working on getting it silent. Once he does that.... tada. It will be a quiet overflow.
jeffs86GT try to add another piece of airline tubing to see what happens, same lenght as the one that was provided. Usually when surging occurs is when it is not getting enough air going down. The stockpipe itself creates another suction.
MayoBoy
Movin' on Up
BWAHAHAHAHAHA. You need to learn the difference between pressure, suction and gravity lines. Second, even in a pressure application a 1" line comes no where close to being able to handle 50 GPM. (hint, you need to get up to 1-1/2" to handle 50 gpm in a pressure line with minimal friction loss - twice the size of 1". For gravity you have to be in the neighborhood of 2-1/2")
If the line size is not the problem, then why did the exterior overflow box fill up well above where it should have i.e. 1" above the standpipe? (It should be topping out at about 1/4" above the standpipe)
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MayoBoy:
I think my 12 years in the fire service have taught me the difference between pressure, suction, and gravity in water flow.
A 1.5" inch line will flow 100 GPM. 1.75" 150 GPM and it goes up exponentially from there. You have to get to 5, yes FIVE, inches before friction loss is truly minimal.
Lack of air entering the stanpipe, or should I say lack of controlled air, causes the rising level and the gurgling noise.
His first problem was the standpipe was too high, and that caused his overflow box to, umm, overflow. That also caused a slower rate of flow because the water level outside the tank was too high, making the siphon rate too slow.
The real question is this: Why do you keep restating your theory when it is so obviously wrong? Even overflow box manufacturers recommend 1" drain pipes.
I think my 12 years in the fire service have taught me the difference between pressure, suction, and gravity in water flow.
A 1.5" inch line will flow 100 GPM. 1.75" 150 GPM and it goes up exponentially from there. You have to get to 5, yes FIVE, inches before friction loss is truly minimal.
Lack of air entering the stanpipe, or should I say lack of controlled air, causes the rising level and the gurgling noise.
His first problem was the standpipe was too high, and that caused his overflow box to, umm, overflow. That also caused a slower rate of flow because the water level outside the tank was too high, making the siphon rate too slow.
The real question is this: Why do you keep restating your theory when it is so obviously wrong? Even overflow box manufacturers recommend 1" drain pipes.
MayoBoy
Movin' on Up
Hydraulics and firefighting are two slightly different things. DAGS on the Williams & Hazen formula for friction loss. In the meantime, here's a friction/flow chart based on the same:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/flowchart.html
Flowing 100 gpm at aquarium pump head pressure in a 1-1/2" pipe would give you a trickle out the end of the pipe at the very most.
I keep restating my theory because it is correct and people like you come on here and give completely false information.
Extrapolate this picture.
If you carry the lines around the water level is about 3/4" above the stand pipe.
So we know that:
1) the standpipe is at the same height as the stand pipe in my Quietflo.
2) my overflow works correctly (running ~500 gph) and the water level only rises 1/4" above the standpipe
That then tells us that water is having trouble getting down the standpipe. Why is that?
1) He has 1" line and the overflow comes equipped with 1-1/4" line (not 1" as you erroneously state)
2) He has a tee in his line which is causing confusion and delay (as Sir Topham Hatt would say)
3) His point of discharge is below the surface of the water creating additional head pressure that the water must work against.
A 1" line would probably work in a straight shot out of the box but adding the tee, valve, and submerged discharge sets it over the edge.
Additionally, as the water in the tank rises, the level between the tank and the overflow becomes even more disparate which should cause more siphon, not less as you state.
1) Firefighting water supply is ALL ABOUT hydraulics, unless I took that class for nothing, and then I'll be ticked off.
2) The chart you supplied shows friction loss. It also lists 1" pipe up to 30 gpm, which by my math is 1800 gph.
3) I doubt the 3/4 inch height. Water does weird things optically, and don't forget to read the meniscus, not the top of the water.
4) The top of the Quietlfo sponge or the top of the actual pipe?
5) If the water in the outside box is too high, it will cause LESS of a siphon because you will have LESS height difference. Do you know how a water tower works?
2) The chart you supplied shows friction loss. It also lists 1" pipe up to 30 gpm, which by my math is 1800 gph.
3) I doubt the 3/4 inch height. Water does weird things optically, and don't forget to read the meniscus, not the top of the water.
4) The top of the Quietlfo sponge or the top of the actual pipe?
5) If the water in the outside box is too high, it will cause LESS of a siphon because you will have LESS height difference. Do you know how a water tower works?
MayoBoy
Movin' on Up
Point 1 - firefighting is about hydraulics at enormous pressure and TDH - way more than is applicable to aquarium pumps.
Point 2 - 1800 GPH while losing 46 feet of head. How much head pressure is there in a gravity drain?
(you generally shoot for 8-10 fps for pressure, 6 fps for suction and 2-4 fps for gravity. Head loss more or less mirrors fps in 1-1/2" and greater pipe but drops off dramatically in the smaller sizes i.e. 1" pipe @ 7.4 fps = loss of 20 feet of head, while 1-1/2" pipe at 7.1 fps = loss of 11 feet)
Point 3 - I extrapolated the drawing, it comes out to 3/4 or near enough - way more than 1/4"
Point 4 - Top of the stand pipe.
Point 5 - The outside box is already lower than the interior box. The water in the exterior box is rising but so is the water in the tank so the siphon will stay fairly constant.
Point 2 - 1800 GPH while losing 46 feet of head. How much head pressure is there in a gravity drain?
(you generally shoot for 8-10 fps for pressure, 6 fps for suction and 2-4 fps for gravity. Head loss more or less mirrors fps in 1-1/2" and greater pipe but drops off dramatically in the smaller sizes i.e. 1" pipe @ 7.4 fps = loss of 20 feet of head, while 1-1/2" pipe at 7.1 fps = loss of 11 feet)
Point 3 - I extrapolated the drawing, it comes out to 3/4 or near enough - way more than 1/4"
Point 4 - Top of the stand pipe.
Point 5 - The outside box is already lower than the interior box. The water in the exterior box is rising but so is the water in the tank so the siphon will stay fairly constant.
It doesn't matter how high the outside box is. It matters how high the water level in the box is. If the water level is too high, then the water can't move fast enough from the inside box to the outside since the siphon is slower.
Thus, lowering the standpipe fixes the problem because the siphon moves faster.
Which, BTW, he has already stated that this fixed his problem yet you continue to insist that his 1 inch drain is not big enough.
I don't get it.
Thus, lowering the standpipe fixes the problem because the siphon moves faster.
Which, BTW, he has already stated that this fixed his problem yet you continue to insist that his 1 inch drain is not big enough.
I don't get it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8273923#post8273923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jeffs86GT
Will work on it tonight hopefully.....
I just wanted to add the horse
Jeff
OMG!!! Its time to quit... the expert has spoken. He might save your life someday and when he does then he can show you in person about phyics and what not. Its starting to be repetitive.
It depends on how big your overflow is. You have to make sure it can handle around 500-600gph with the drain/siphon from the prefilter. If it is slow to siphon and your prefilter and stockpipe is correct then you might have to add another u-tube to help siphon quicker.
Don't take any advice from MayoBoy, he has a bad taste in his mouth and can't forget it.
Snakebyt
New member
well i have been talking to a buddy of mine that can work with acrylic, i am thinking of using the inner overflow boxes, and making a 3 foot long outer overflow box that will have three 1" bulkheads in it, i figure if i can run 4 Utubes instead of 2, and having double the bulkhead drain, i shouldnt have any problems
I can't believe this thing got to 4 pages. Anyway here is a quick update. After messing around with the overflow last night I have made it "nearly" silent. I didn't get a chance to build a stockman or any other type of device but what I did do was put that peice of foam or filter that they give you in the quiteflo on the standpipe. That seemed to "even out" the flow of water down the drain and not only quieted down the "toilet flush" noise but also eliminated the surging. Works for now till I come up with a more permanent solution.
Jeff
Jeff
