Pairing flame angels - plus a coral beauty buddy

[Ocicat]

Some background:
- I have a 180-gallon tank with 110 lbs of live rock. The tank has been running for 2 months. At present I have 6 blue/green chromis and 1 pinktail trigger. (Plus my first coral, some yellow polyps, that I just got last night - woohoo!)
- I have been doing a lot of reading, and I would really like a pair of flame angels. I know it's possible but not necessarily easy... I would also like a coral beauty.
- My LFS told me that I can have a flame and a coral beauty in a 180 if I introduce them at the same time. (They're one of the good LFSs! Of course that doesn't necessarily mean they are always right.)
- I have read on RC that a small flame angel is likely to be female.

So, all of that taken into consideration:

The LFS has a lovely coral beauty and a very small flame angel... I'm thinking s/he is 1" - I'm lousy at estimating measurements, but I have been cruising all of the LFS obssessively lately and seen quite a few flames, and this one's tiny by comparison.

Another LFS has a more typically sized flame angel (maybe 2.5"?).

I would like to add all 3 of these fish together, with the hope that the flames will pair, and they'll get along with the CB. Is this idea good or bad?

I have a 20-gal QT tank - can I put the 3 there first, or is that only increasing the chances for conflict since the space is so much smaller? Or should I intro the CB to the display and just put the 2 flames in the QT to see if they'll pair, then intro them to the display a few days after the CB? Or I could put the CB in the fuge, put the 2 flames in the QT, and then intro all 3 to the display at once after the 2 flames have (hopefully) paired.

Any thoughts/advice/suggestions would be appreciated!

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I wouldn't pair up Flames myself...You can buy them already paired at INLAND AQUATICS . There number is on their website, and they do ship. I would NOT attempt to put unpaired Flames in a 20 gallon qt..Check with Inland, great place.
The CB and Flames will be better off introduced at the same time, but there are no guarantees that it will work..You just need to keep an eye out for aggression

 

[Angel*Fish]

If the small flame is only one inch from mouth to tail tip, I'd say add all 3 at once and you should achieve beautiful, lovely harmony.

I'd never tell anyone not to quarantine, but when angels are quarantined it should not normally be in a sterile environment - there should be LR and even macro algae growth if possible.

If I was sure these fish were all healthy specimens, I would have no qualms about placing them all in the main tank at once where the greatest chance of success is assured.

Nothing is 100% but you should be fine. I assume you don't already have any angels in your tank?

Be sure your rock is arranged such that maximum hidey holes & swim thrus are available. It also helps if at least some of your reef is tall, but freestanding to provide more ways for the fish to get away from each other - and feel more comfortable.

I don't think it's preferable to allow any of these fish to become established in a tank prior to the others - although it might be helpful to allow a fish a day or a few hours before the more dominant one is added. Like say adding the little female in the morning followed by the male toward the end of the day.

Flames tend to be dominant over CB's but that does depend on size and sex. If you are worried about the flame picking on the CB, you might give that fish the half-whole day advantage.

I noticed that your tank is new - I'm not familiar with how much rock 110 lbs is - if I think of it as $600-$700 worth that kind of helps...it sounds like plenty - maybe a picture- the thing is you want plenty of grazing algae for the fish (micro - like diatoms) - My tank is not diatom free and I keep it this way on purpose because most dwarf angels love it (and I've got 5 if you count the Singapore which is small, dwarfish but not a Centropyge) You want a good growth of sponges and all kinds of the things that grow on live rock.

If you are planning a more sterile algae-free environment with the intent of focusing on sps corals, you might want to pause at this juncture and think about some of these issues including the possibility that the angels can nip your corals. But it is 180 after all, so maybe I'm being overly cautious.

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8245756#post8245756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
I wouldn't pair up Flames myself...You can buy them already paired at INLAND AQUATICS . There number is on their website, and they do ship. I would NOT attempt to put unpaired Flames in a 20 gallon qt..Check with Inland, great place.
The CB and Flames will be better off introduced at the same time, but there are no guarantees that it will work..You just need to keep an eye out for aggression

When you have a male and a juvenile/female pairing flames is as easy as adding sugar to your tea. It's just so hard to find a female - and now it sounds like Inland will be "hogging' them lol

 

[Ocicat]

Nope, no other angels are in the tank - just the chromis and pinktail.

So is it pretty much a given that a tiny flame is a female? I have the little flame and the CB on hold, because the employee at the LFS advised it, saying the little flame would go quickly. ("She" only arrived at the store yesterday.) I was a little worried that the small size might make the fish less hardy.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Angel*Fish,

How can you tell if Angels are male or female if they are both juvenile? I know I read about this, but can't remember....if you add two Angels, one smaller than the other...does the smaller automatically become female, the larger male? I know they can't change later from male to female like Clowns, but how does this work?

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8246214#post8246214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
Angel*Fish,

How can you tell if Angels are male or female if they are both juvenile? I know I read about this, but can't remember....if you add two Angels, one smaller than the other...does the smaller automatically become female, the larger male? I know they can't change later from male to female like Clowns, but how does this work?

Well if they are both juvenile they are both female.

If you have a juvenile it should be paired with a fish that is signigicantly larger, say twice the size. Even if that larger fish is female, it will become the male -

With angel pairs - the male is always larger (sexual dimorphism). I have never tried pairing two juveniles - maybe someone could post if they have. I'd think at the very least it might take longer due to bickering.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Thanks..

 

[Ocicat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8245772#post8245772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
I noticed that your tank is new - I'm not familiar with how much rock 110 lbs is - if I think of it as $600-$700 worth that kind of helps...it sounds like plenty - maybe a picture- the thing is you want plenty of grazing algae for the fish (micro - like diatoms) - My tank is not diatom free and I keep it this way on purpose because most dwarf angels love it (and I've got 5 if you count the Singapore which is small, dwarfish but not a Centropyge) You want a good growth of sponges and all kinds of the things that grow on live rock.

If you are planning a more sterile algae-free environment with the intent of focusing on sps corals, you might want to pause at this juncture and think about some of these issues including the possibility that the angels can nip your corals. But it is 180 after all, so maybe I'm being overly cautious.

Yeah, it's like $600 worth. (Ouch, I prefer NOT to think of it in those terms. )

I do have some diatom growth on the sand. (Is there a diff between that and cyano? It's red.)

I may eventually like to try some SPS, but that is in the distant future. For now I'm just planning on the colorful softies like zoas - I want it to look beautiful without taking too much extra work and maintenance, and I prefer to keep a fairly forgiving environment in case I make any newbie mistakes.

I have also thought I might like to add some non-invasive macro algae like halimeda (just haven't been able to find any for sale yet). Do angels like macro or just micro? Would something like nori on a clip work for them?

I don't mind leaving some micro, esp. on the rocks, but I just don't have a lot of it right now - just what I have noticed on the sand and a little bit on the glass (barely visible). I do have some kinda odd, teeny-tiny worm-like growths on the rock, which I'd be more than happy for the angels to snack on. The only pics I have up right now are of that, actually (no full tank shots):
http://gojimountain.com/aquarium/white_fuzz.htm

I will try to get a more recent, full-tank shot.

 

[Angela Short]

I hopefully will have a pair soon. A local LFS has a tiny female but it has ICK and they wouldn't come off the retail any for me to treat at home so I passed. I ordered one today from another local store hopeing for a tiny female. He is going to order 3 and specify small so maybe I will get lucky and get a female. I hope the tiny females are not very hard to come by...

Good luck with your pair! I would recomend gettting the tiny flame and QTing at least a week then putting her in the fuge then the male and QTing him at least a week then you are only 2 weeks in and "then" put them both in the display. I would hate for you to put a disease in by being in a hurry. You can get nice CB's and male flames all day long so I would start with the female and work it that way if it was me. Actually I would do 3-4 week minimum each fish But I have had more than my share of diseases and learned the hard way .

 

[Ocicat]

Thanks for the suggestion, Angela. When would you add the CB? Maybe buy and QT him with the male flame, while the little flame is in the fuge?

I was reading on WetWebMedia, and it seems that flames are prone to brooklynella - ? (I don't even know what that is, but I'm sure it is not good.) So it seems like QT would be good if I can swing it. What could I do with my QT tank to make it more angel-friendly? (I added my chromis and pinktail without QTing only b/c they were the first fish, but I would like to QT as much as possible.) I could add some cheato or something...? Maybe a piece of LR.

I am NOT a patient person, but I feel like if I continue adding fish without QTing I am pushing my luck.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Do angels like macro or just micro? Would something like nori on a clip work for them?

I know flames do eat some macro/filamentous algae - a nori clip is great - it may take a while for them to a appreciate it . You can also wrap nori around a rock and sort of fasten it with rubber bands to get them interested.

 

[Angela Short]

Many people never have problems without QTing I have just always been one of them that seems to have bad luck so I QT everyone. I eased upon my rules and added a fellow hobiests fish who was fine then showed ICK so I went ahead and added a fairy wrass with no QT since I was going to hypo the whole tank before introducing them in the 270. He brought in velvet and very nearly wiped my tank out! If I had QT him seperatly I would have had only 1 sick fish instead of 8.
I totally agree that angels need live rock but if they are not eating good at the store I think a low stress QT alone gives them time to aclimate to prepared foods and you more time to work specially with the fish. Angles can be shy and a tank full of food competivness with other fish can just equel doom sometimes.
I would not put a CB and flame in a small QT together but they should be fine in the 180 Just start with the female then makle and QT the CB last and you should be fine.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Since I have a headache, it's probably just me, but I'm not sure what kind of quarantine you are recommending. I hope you're not suggesting several weeks between each fish though - that could be asking for trouble theoretically including the possibility of the female up and deciding she needs to be a male - if left alone too long. Though if it's a juvenile you'd have some time.

Here's the type of quarantine I recommend for dwarf angels.

• Preferably 30g - no less than 20 for sure
• Live rock & if possible, macroalgae
• No prophylactic drugs or hypo except possibly some oral prazipro to "deworm"

Obviously if the fish shows some sign of illness this would be different. I don't believe in treating angels unless they are visibly ill. However since 70-80% of our fish are imported with some find of worm-type parasite, I think it's a good idea to give them some praziquantel orally

 

[Angela Short]

This is what I was suggesting... Get the girl and QT her a week to make sure she doesn't come down with ick or any number of other ailments and put her in the fuge so she doesn't have free roam of the big tank then do the male flame for a week also to watch for disease and make sure they are taking prepared foods well. So its only 2 weeks total before they are introduced. But I guess it would be OK to QT both flames in the 20-30 gallon tank. Honestly didn't think of that senario, I have 3 headaches underfoot everytime I try to get online for a few minutes. They are 5, 3 and 4 months :lol:.
I plan on introducing my new girl flame into the 30 gallon QT the male is in next week. I was just thinking about them bringing illness in. I am super paranoid about it. But I guess she needs to add all 3 to the main at the same time to head off bickering so either 2 seperate QT's are needed or put the flames in the fuge after there time in QT, then do the CB, then put all 3 in the main at the same time. Or just take a chance about disease and just go for it!

 

[FishNutzBoi]

I'm planning to add a flame and a coral beauty angel to my 110G mixed reef aswell. Ocicat, please keep us updated on your angels. Thanks!

 

[Ocicat]

Will do, FishNutz. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

 

[Ocicat]

OK, guys, update: I got them! I got all three yesterday evening and went ahead and took my chances, putting them right into the main tank after acclimation. So far, 24 hours later, all seems to be as good as can be expected - no love at first sight, but no war either.

I have witnessed the larger flame chase the CB a couple of times, but he doesn't make a big deal of it - he seems satisfied when the CB turns tail. (It definitely is holding true that the flame is the dominent one in the flame/CB relationship.) Then at times the large flame and CB will swim right past each other without incident. I have seen the CB make a couple of moves at the small flame, but nothing serious.

I have seen somewhat limited interaction between the two flames so far - it is a 6' tank and they mostly go their own ways. However I have seen them feeding off the rock within a few inches of each other, a couple of times. I have also seen the large flame give the occasional lunge at the small flame - however, he does not pursue or seem very intense about the aggression. The small flame is completely docile and rather calm about it, scooting through a small rock opening or around a corner and then relaxing immediately. She does not seem at all nervous or concerned by the large flame's presence but will just get out of the way when he goes at her. Occasionally she even appears to follow after him for a short ways.

Both flames are very active and feeding off the rocks. The large flame has within the last hour or so begun coming completely out from the rockwork and swimming in the open water. The smaller one is still keeping to the rocks. The CB is the most reclusive, and I have not seen him nearly as much as the flames, but he does make the occasional appearance. I'd like to see him really start feeding and feeling comfortable, but I know it can sometimes take a fish a few days.

Fido the pinktail trigger is ignoring them all, but for the occasional curious glance.

Really it is too early to tell anything for sure, but at least there is no bloodshed so far!

 

[ncny21802]

I have 2 flame angels and a majestic angel in my reef tank. The flames were added 2 months apart with the larger added last. They swim together and get along fine. Good luck with it though

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8258065#post8258065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ocicat
OK, guys, update: I got them! I got all three yesterday evening and went ahead and took my chances, putting them right into the main tank after acclimation. So far, 24 hours later, all seems to be as good as can be expected - no love at first sight, but no war either.

I have witnessed the larger flame chase the CB a couple of times, but he doesn't make a big deal of it - he seems satisfied when the CB turns tail. (It definitely is holding true that the flame is the dominent one in the flame/CB relationship.) Then at times the large flame and CB will swim right past each other without incident. I have seen the CB make a couple of moves at the small flame, but nothing serious.

I have seen somewhat limited interaction between the two flames so far - it is a 6' tank and they mostly go their own ways. However I have seen them feeding off the rock within a few inches of each other, a couple of times. I have also seen the large flame give the occasional lunge at the small flame - however, he does not pursue or seem very intense about the aggression. The small flame is completely docile and rather calm about it, scooting through a small rock opening or around a corner and then relaxing immediately. She does not seem at all nervous or concerned by the large flame's presence but will just get out of the way when he goes at her. Occasionally she even appears to follow after him for a short ways.

Both flames are very active and feeding off the rocks. The large flame has within the last hour or so begun coming completely out from the rockwork and swimming in the open water. The smaller one is still keeping to the rocks. The CB is the most reclusive, and I have not seen him nearly as much as the flames, but he does make the occasional appearance. I'd like to see him really start feeding and feeling comfortable, but I know it can sometimes take a fish a few days.

Fido the pinktail trigger is ignoring them all, but for the occasional curious glance.

Really it is too early to tell anything for sure, but at least there is no bloodshed so far!

I don't think it's too early, from your excellent description sounds like they are working things out. Your flames will likely start spawning in 3-6 weeks

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8259483#post8259483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ncny21802
I have 2 flame angels and a majestic angel in my reef tank. The flames were added 2 months apart with the larger added last. They swim together and get along fine. Good luck with it though

IME also the male can be added to an established female.