Ph problem

[Sheldon337]

My Ph has begun to drop when the main lights go off and the actnics are the only thing left on. It drops from 8.2 to 7.8. Is this something I should be worried about?

I use Oceanic Salt and I have heard that it keeps calcium high but lacks in Alkalinity. Do I need to get an alkalinity test kit?

Any help would be appreciated.

Lee

 

[pepe.king.prawn]

This is serious problem, as it will result in stunted coral growth and stress in fish. I would recommend you purchase an alkalinity test kit. Doesn't need to be salifert, they're all fairly accurate as the test method is simple. The drop in pH is probably due to respiration from corals/algae/plants whatever you have in your system, which releases CO2 into the water. The CO2 forms carbonic acid, consequently lowering the pH. Some people combat this swing by running a refugium on a reverse photoperiod. I'd recommend you test your alkalinity and adjust it accordingly using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). If you run a calcium reactor that could be contributing to the problem. If so, consider putting it on a timer or reducing the efluent drip rate, and check that the pH of the effluent is in the proper range.

Good luck!

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

pepe.king.prawn's post is right on the mark. In addition if you do not have sufficient water motion and a top-skimming-overflow the build up of CO2 when the lights are out can cause severe stress to all of the life in your aquarium. It is fairly normal to have a .2ph swing between your day and night cycles. However your .4 swing is not normal IME. Also I believe a swing below 7.9 is unusual indicating a problem that should be addressed. Try to tell us more about your system, how you maintain Calcium and alkalinity, and the things you do test for.

 

[Sheldon337]

First off thank you for the response.

I should probably note at the beginning that I already run a refugium on a reverse photoperiod.

When my main lights (10k PCs) go off, I have noticed that some corals pull in quickly. Mostly my xenia. I have never tested for Alk, but the rest of my tests are as follows:

Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Phosphate - 0.2
Calcium - 500

I do not supplement anything. Calcium is that high as a result of the salt i use.

I suppose I need to test the Alk.

What range is considered normal and how exactly do i raise it, if needed?

Thanks again, Lee

 

[thereefgeek]

I must say that a swing in pH is fairly normal in a closed system. My pH probe is a bit old and doesn't calibrate very well any more, but a .2-.4 swing from lights on to lights off isn't completely abnormal (at least in my own experience) especially with a heavy bio-load like mine.

I personally don't "test" for pH with a kit, I use a digital controller, and the problem I see with testing with kits is that they usually either give you a fixed reading no matter when you sample (Tetra), or they're accurate enough to make you flip out and purchase the manufacturer's "buffers and additives" in order to remedy the perceived problem. Either way you end up with a false sense of security, like the oil light or gauge in your car that never moves until the engine has already blown up.

For $80 you can get a good digital meter (I prefer Pinpoint) and observe your pH over the course of a few days or weeks. You'll start to notice a pattern to the swings when the animals (photosynthetic) are generating oxygen during the day, or CO2 at night.

A simple test is to take a sample of aquarium water, say a half gallon or so and aerate heavily overnight with an airstone or small powerhead and aerator attachment. Test the tank and the sample sometime around mid day (per your lighting schedule). If there's a major diff in the sample vs. the tank, then you may have a problem (don't stress yet). Just increase your flow in the tank, especially across the surface of the water and do the same test process after a week. If you can look upward at the tank through the front glass and notice an oily film on the surface, you don't have enough flow and this hinders gas exchange. the reverse photoperiod is also a good start on your 'fuge, but don't forget to harvest a good amount of your macro pretty regularly or that can also lead to a depressed pH.

If none of this helps, then consider using buffers or kalkwasser, but if you start adding things like that be sure to test for them. Especially kalk as it's very easy to drip too much and really spike your pH too high which would be far more devastating than a .4 swing within a 24 hour period.

 

[thereefgeek]

One more thing:

Be careful about how much you feed your fish. I don't know how current the pics in your gallery are but it looks like you have a pretty light bio-load. Your fish won't starve (even though my wife is positive that mine are still hungry). Overfeeding leads to more poop and more poop leads to nutrient problems which can be a source of depressed pH.

How often and in what quantity do you do water changes? Step that up a bit and see where you stand pH wise.

I should also note that the only things I test for are Ca and alkalinity, and that's a rarity at best. Good husbandry goes a long way, but a balanced system is what we're all aiming for.

We're keeping a mini-food chain in a little glass box. Snails and hermits are nice, but scavengers like shrimp, bristle worms (yes, contrary to what some will say), brittle stars (the tiny ones), all the way down to the amphipods that cruise the rockwork at night all lend a hand in keeping our systems nice and clean. They reproduce easily in a healthy system and eat the crud that the higher organisms spew on a regular basis.

Just to get in a shameless plug for the WMC, we are going to have a dozen of the hobby's premier authorities on marine reefkeeping assembled in one room that weekend. Their presentations will have a bounty of information which will help you avoid the mistakes we've all made at one time or another. If you can possibly make it to the conference you won't regret it. It's going to be like a years worth of knowledge packed into one weekend.

The internet is great for getting quick info, and for as many people there are in this hobby, there are at least as many opinions on how you should go about it. Like most things in life, free advice is worth every penny.

 

[pepe.king.prawn]

From the looks of your tank specs, I'd say there's a good chance your alkalinity is low, so I'd definitely go for the test kit. If you have a fuge on a reverse photo period and well buffered water, you should see virtually no swing in pH when the lights go out.

The reasoning: (if you care)
Alkalinity is the buffering capacity of the water determing MAINLY (not exclusively) by the buffer formed between the carbonate and bicarbonate ions. In your tank you get carbonate ions from dissolved calcium carbonate (aragonite etc.). You indicated your calcium levels are quite high (500ppm), so I'm guessing you dose kalkwasser or calcium chloride. When you increase the concentration of calcium in your water, it decreases the concentration of carbonate ions, consequently decreasing the buffering capacity of the water.

Keep us posted.

 

[Sheldon337]

Thank you all for the advice, I will do some water changes that are probably overdue, test the alk, and will keep you posted.
Thanks again.

Lee

 

[alexchern75]

I also saw the same problem when I was using oceanic, after doing a lot of research I desided to go back to Intant Ocean and its been gravy since then... It seems like the hight calcium contents affects the ph negatively.

 

[dustin Combs]

something simple you can do is place a fan constantly blowing over your sump. It will help with CO2 export. Simple and cheap. And it works

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

A Ca level of 500 is very high. This very well could cause the Alk to be low. To have a balanced Alk at a Ca level of 500 would require a dKh of about 18, which is probably not possible. I would try to get the Ca closer to 430 with a dKh of around 10. You can use Toe Cutter's graph here to determine if your Ca and Alk are in balance.

 

[arson420]

I use Oceanic and I have the EXACT same problem. I actually have to dose 1 heaping teaspoon of Reef Builder every two days to keep the Alk up to 9 DKH. Even then my PH only reaches about 8.0.

What's really annoying is if I make a fresh batch of salt water I still have to dose it with Reef Builder in order to get the Alk up past 7DKH. That doesn't sound right that you would have to dose freshly made salt water to get it to the right parameters.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6873383#post6873383 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by arson420
What's really annoying is if I make a fresh batch of salt water I still have to dose it with Reef Builder in order to get the Alk up past 7DKH. That doesn't sound right that you would have to dose freshly made salt water to get it to the right parameters.

I agree, I use IO and check every new batch of SW I make and end up adjusting the Ca and Alk to 430/10. I also test the Mg level to make sure it is around 1350 (it has been both low and high). It seems that the parameters are always different. I don't know if this is due to my testing methods (use salifert test kits) or the inconsistency of the salt batches but is somewhat worrisome that if the things I test seem off, what is going on with the things I don't or can't test. One of the reasons I use IO (beside that I started with IO) is that it does seem more consistent that some of the other brands I have tried and it seems to dissolve quickly and loose that ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œnewly mixed saltwaterââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ harshness quickly.

 

[pepe.king.prawn]

I use IO at home, and Oceanic here at school. IO is consistently low in magnesium and calcium, whereas Oceanic is less so. Of course where it makes of for those, it lacks in alkalinity. I may try the 50/50 IO/Oceanic mix that people have talked about, but for now I plan to adjust the alk of all new water before adding.

 

[Sheldon337]

How do you all adjust the alk?

Is there a product that you all prefer?

I'll be testing the water for alk when i get home.

Lee

 

[arson420]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6875016#post6875016 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sheldon337
How do you all adjust the alk?

Is there a product that you all prefer?

I'll be testing the water for alk when i get home.

Lee

I personally user Seachem's Reef Builder. It basically just basking soda with extra trace elements that are good for the water like calcium and magnesium. In a pinch you can theoretically use just plain old arm and hammer baking soda. I don't know if they have different kinds of baking soda, just make sure it's basically "Sodium Bicarbonate" only. Anybody please correct me if I'm wrong.

I dose a heaping teaspoon in some top off RO water and let it dissolve for a bit. Then just pour that in my sump. I have a 100 gallon tank.

 

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6870256#post6870256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alexchern75
I also saw the same problem when I was using oceanic, after doing a lot of research I desided to go back to Intant Ocean and its been gravy since then... It seems like the hight calcium contents affects the ph negatively.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6870256#post6870256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by arson420 I use Oceanic and I have the EXACT same problem. I actually have to dose 1 heaping teaspoon of Reef Builder every two days to keep the Alk up to 9 DKH. Even then my PH only reaches about 8.0.

What's really annoying is if I make a fresh batch of salt water I still have to dose it with Reef Builder in order to get the Alk up past 7DKH. That doesn't sound right that you would have to dose freshly made salt water to get it to the right parameters.

Oh no here we go....:lol: Just like every penny,this topic definately has two sides. Just like any chemical you have to know its capabilities and limitations,pepe.prawn touched down on some very good points, and my story to the contrary tested 8.2ph right off the get with Oceanic. I switched back to IO a while back(low on cash ) and used it like I did in the very beginning for about a year.But like pepe mentioned it is consistantly low in Mg and Ca. Important things when you want to see coraline and your sticks 'a growin,and with its use I just wasnt seeing. Now that I dug a lil deeper in my pockets and opted back to the Oceanic I am just now getting my beautifull colors back and some decent growth to right home to momma about.

What Ive been doing is after a fresh waterchange obv. the Ca is gonna be high, so Ill drip some buff over the night, then RO/DI the days there after for topoff.Then after the one week mark Ill start dripping my kalk to maintain Ca and Ph over the night time lows. Seems to work very well.

Im even worse than you Rich,Ill test ph on new water,but after that I just watch my xenia to be honest with you all.Great lil indicators,when they show signs of anything, staying closed or looking shrively you know somethings up

-Justin

 

[boviac]

I too have that same problem with my tank 8.2 - 7.8... even 7.7!!! :eek1: I have an aquacontroller II that tracks my pH and logs it on my computer which I can graph out. Expensive gizmo but I like it. Now I have plenty of flow across the top and an overflow into an spray top sump that provides great air/water contact (no bioballs however) My 50 gal tank is pretty heavily bioloaded with corals. Earlier this year, I noticed I had a Mg deficency (~500) and slowly over two weeks buffered it up(~1250). This did help bring my Ca readings up as well.

So basically I found that a Kalk Drip refilled weekly to keep up with evaporation along with semi-daily two part Ca addions really helped keep my pH swing from being so extreme - now around 8.2-8.0. Of course water changes are a must. I used to attribute the swing also to the closed house increase CO2 buildup. Don't know if that scenario is accurate, but it makes some sense to me.

pH is probably one of the easiest things to test but more difficult to truly understand. Lots of discussion and well written information on it if you like all the science stuff.

Bottom line - as long as your corals and fish are thriving as they are in my tank - how bad can it be? I'd hate to think if my pH swing is harming them, how fast would they grow if it didn't swing? Good luck and keep an eye on that pulsing xenia!

Chris

 

[arson420]

I know what you mean Justin. I am really into motorcycles and have definitely seen my fair share of "What tires are best" and "Real or Synthetic Oil" threads to last me a lifetime. The thing that's different about this is that it's based on factual tests instead of just personal experience. The more I read on Reef Central I am seeing alot of "What salt is best" type threads and am seeing that there are pro's and con's to everything that people use. Actually after doing research in this thread about what people use I am kinda glad that I am using oceanic because it seems easier to just maintain Alk then maintaining Alk, Calcium, Magnesium or whatever. Everything seems to be going fine in my tank so there's no plans for change on my end.

 

[Justin74]

Same here arson420 lots and lots of threads,.For me I was heavily using kalk but couldnt use enough to keep the Ca up which I attribute to low mg and already low Ca in the salt,but I have no proof just educated guess.I agree much easier and cheaper manipulating pH than Ca and Mg,for me anyway.

-Justin