Phosphate reduction with carbon dosing

[steenmillinder]

Hi im going to try an experiment and i need some help(lots of stupid questiones!!), I'm setting up a 90gallon fish only tank with no liverock or sandbed or macro algae as filtration.

The filtration will be in the form of added carbon and skimming(hugely over skimmed) and whatever water needs to be replaced due to the skimmers.

There is going to be lots of rock with a lot of holes for pods and whatever critters needing shelter from the fish, but the rock itself os not porus in the sense that it provides any significant anaerob habitat.

As i understand it the N/P removeal ratio is going to be ofset away from the phosphate, so not enough phosphate is going to be broken down compared to nitrate.
Is there any way i can introduce more N to the tank in the way of animals? I mean is there a difference in the N/P ratio in carnivore compared to herbavore poo or vertabrates compared to invertabrates?

Is it at all possible to avoid dosing N or using some kind of phosphate remover in this kind of system?

Some use vinegar and or sugar and or alcohole, will this promote the groath of different strands? is diversity in this case nessecerely a good thing?

If there are different strands feeding more or less on the different carbon sources do they all take up the same ratio of N/P?

I've read about some folks having trouble getting already existing nitrate levels down by dosing vodka, but when down dosing vodka was very effective in keeping them down. When i started dosing vodka in my old reeftank i noticed that the water got very claer, i think it somehow effected the visible part of the total DOM, so if dosing N to get P down is nitrate dosing the way to do it or could there be some more effective way to dose N?

 

[swcc]

adding N to reduce P is retarded. If you run your system high flow, no detritus accumulation and big skimmer, you will not need anything as you will not have P or N measurable in the water column in the first place.. P or N increases come from detritus or rocks/substrates full of P and leaching due to bacterial processes.

 

[gbru316]

adding N to reduce P is retarded. If you run your system high flow, no detritus accumulation and big skimmer, you will not need anything as you will not have P or N measurable in the water column in the first place.. P or N increases come from detritus or rocks/substrates full of P and leaching due to bacterial processes.

If you have any stock in your tank, you have a nitrate source.

If you feed said stock, you have a phosphate source.

If you have live rock, or any other type of structure, you WILL have detritus. It's impossible to eliminate every single dead spot in your tank.

Here's some reading that might help:
Nitrate

Phosphate

Vinegar Dosing

Many people just use GFO to remove PO4 when adding a carbon source

 

[uglyfish]

There is going to be lots of rock with a lot of holes for pods and whatever critters needing shelter from the fish, but the rock itself os not porus in the sense that it provides any significant anaerob habitat.

It sound like you want to try running a system with only a skimmer for n&p reduction... no anaerobic activity in the rock (non-porous), no sand bed.

What do you expect from this system? Do you think it will be more stable? What's the hypothesis?

 

[swcc]

If you have any stock in your tank, you have a nitrate source.

If you feed said stock, you have a phosphate source.

If you have live rock, or any other type of structure, you WILL have detritus. It's impossible to eliminate every single dead spot in your tank.

Here's some reading that might help:
Nitrate

Phosphate

Vinegar Dosing

Many people just use GFO to remove PO4 when adding a carbon source

I should have said low vs no detritus accumulation...my fault...If you run a system with low detritus accumulation and a skimmer, the skimmer will be all the installed filtration needed to keep his nutrients undetectable. It is running a system berlin style. Yes a berlin system also includes larger detritus removal through siphoning it out when you change water(or some will just siphon it into a filter sock and not change water). Bacteria is a given, all systems have bacteria as biological filtration. Bacteria also form their own environment and thus there will be nitrate reduction through bacterial processes. Balance export with import and the system will not go eutrophic. If he is planning to dose carbon and not ever change water or siphon out detritus build up in any settling areas, eventually it will may build up to the point of nutrient accumulation(most likely PO4 will become detectable). Import and export are not balanced and thus nutrients will rise.

 

[steenmillinder]

i want to se what the posibillities for nutrient export by dosing the limiting factors that occur in the system are. I will test the water very freequently and i have dosing pumps for liquids. I am also curious how the different kinds of inhabitants might effect what the limiting factors may become over time in such a system, and how heavyly it can be stocked(here i also mean that a pound of grouper is going to polute a lot more the a pound of tang).

I have had a DSB + liverock + skimmer + cheato refuge type system, and i've also had a 200gallon 'gadget' tank with redox controlled sulphur filter, ph controlled calcium reactor, ferric oxide reactor, carbon reactor, filter socks and of course a skimmer.

Now i want to try this type of system, it could be an 'easy' way to keep a reef, i realize it's not easier or harder just different, since i'm gonna test a lot and tweak dosing pumps to have a balance between export and import, compared to DSB/cheato where i very rarely tested when it was broken in proper.

btw thanks for the links i had'nt actually read the one on dosing pure vinegar, here in europe people tend to dose VSV and not pure alcohole, was'nt aware of the difference in dosing alcohle vs. vinegar on cyano.

 

[steenmillinder]

and yes i hope this type of system will make intervention easier should it become necessery one day, compared to at DSB or sulphur reactor wich though effective can have a slower reaction time and possibly more suseptable to 'evironmental' changes in the system.

I consider makeing a large surface area aerob zone in the sump wich can easyly be cleaned to reduce any larger biofilm areas in the display of the system. This could have been a bioball area but i'm gonna go with blue filter mats.

 

[ormet]

adding N to reduce P is retarded.

You really have a problem with people doing things different from you...

steenmillinder: if something (N) is acting limiting in your tank, you need to add it.

Will you in your tank need to do it? Maybe, maybe not

I run my tank with no sand and no live rock with skimmer / DOC dosing (VSV gives me best results) as only filtration. I sometimes dose NaNo3, it helps with keeping po4 down and also corals need some food. I dont run a hugely overrated skimmer, i run a small BM 3.5 on 25g total water volume.

I dont run it as FO tho but SPS dominated.

 

[swcc]

You really have a problem with people doing things different from you...

not at all... Just this particular idea of adding nutrients to a system that has plenty of that nutrient being produced is of little common sense.

 

[swcc]

and yes i hope this type of system will make intervention easier should it become necessery one day, compared to at DSB or sulphur reactor wich though effective can have a slower reaction time and possibly more suseptable to 'evironmental' changes in the system.

I consider makeing a large surface area aerob zone in the sump wich can easyly be cleaned to reduce any larger biofilm areas in the display of the system. This could have been a bioball area but i'm gonna go with blue filter mats.

you plan to set up a bare bottom tank... with barebottom you choose a good skimmer lots of flow and siphon out detritus when needed... It is a super simple system to maintain. I do basically the same thing, only I do run substrate and keep it clean/maintained instead of using as much flow. Have never had an easier system to maintain and keep very low in nutrients. It is nice not battling algae, having nice clean glass, being able to feed fish well and having healthy thriving fish and coral.
The key to your system will be flow that keeps the bottom and rocks clean and as well moves detritus to the overflow to be skimmed.
Barebottom has been around a long time.... here is a great tank from about 8 years ago.... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292233&highlight=jerel+reef+tank

What I am trying to convey is you probably won't need to dose any carbon source if the skimmer is large enough for your bioload..as well set it up properly with well cured rock(look up cooking liverock).

 

[gbru316]

you plan to set up a bare bottom tank... with barebottom you choose a good skimmer lots of flow and siphon out detritus when needed... It is a super simple system to maintain. I do basically the same thing, only I do run substrate and keep it clean/maintained instead of using as much flow. Have never had an easier system to maintain and keep very low in nutrients. It is nice not battling algae, having nice clean glass, being able to feed fish well and having healthy thriving fish and coral.
The key to your system will be flow that keeps the bottom and rocks clean and as well moves detritus to the overflow to be skimmed.
Barebottom has been around a long time.... here is a great tank from about 8 years ago.... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292233&highlight=jerel+reef+tank

What I am trying to convey is you probably won't need to dose any carbon source if the skimmer is large enough for your bioload..as well set it up properly with well cured rock(look up cooking liverock).

Paul's tank has been running for 20 (30? 40?) years using a modified berlin method. His thread regarding preventing "Old Tank Syndrome" goes into detail about how he has maintained his tank through the years.

The main key, according to him? "Typhoons" once or twice a year. He stirs up all the substrate, uses a powerhead to blow off all rocks, and basically just creates so much turbulence in his tank that most of the detritus is lifted into suspension. While this is going on, he runs a diatom filter to remove it, although he says a canister filter will work fine. Others with long-established tanks have recommended this method as well. Most of them are against deep sand beds, and advocate either shallow (<1") or bare bottom.

 

[swcc]

Paul's tank has been running for 20 (30? 40?) years using a modified berlin method. His thread regarding preventing "Old Tank Syndrome" goes into detail about how he has maintained his tank through the years.

The main key, according to him? "Typhoons" once or twice a year. He stirs up all the substrate, uses a powerhead to blow off all rocks, and basically just creates so much turbulence in his tank that most of the detritus is lifted into suspension. While this is going on, he runs a diatom filter to remove it, although he says a canister filter will work fine. Others with long-established tanks have recommended this method as well. Most of them are against deep sand beds, and advocate either shallow (<1") or bare bottom.

Yeah, I really like his tank and methodologies...I would put his tank and the ULN like Bomber's in that thread as opposite ends of the spectrum though.