Phosphate vs Nitrate

draco_myst

New member
I have a water chemistry question, and I was hoping someone could provide me with some guidance. I have always understood that the goal is to reduce nitrates and phosphates as much as possible in a reef aquarium, but I can't seem to keep the nitrates down.

System:

55 gallon tank (set up since August '06)
80 lbs live rock
25 lbs live sand
50 lbs crushed coral
500w Halide
220w PC (110w Actinic - always on, 110w 10K - off when halides on)

40 gallon sump (25 gallons of which is refugium)
50 lbs live sand
small skimmer
110w PC (55 10K & 55 Blue)

Parameters:

pH 8.2
salinity 1.023
temp 78 degF
Alkalinity 10 dkh
calcium 420
amonium/nitrite 0 ppm
phosphate 0 ppm

nitrate 20 ppm and climbing

The corals have all been growing well (zoos, mushrooms, SPS, LPS, xenia). They had been dull in color under the PC lights, but now are showing intense colors since we added the halides and put in new actinic bulbs. We try not to overfeed the fish or the corals (0-2 times per day), in fact our sand sifting starfish just died most likely from starvation. The orange diamond goby digs like crazy looking for food and the sand is very clean. The water looks clear as crystal, though removed water during water changes looks yellow. I've typically changed 15 gallons once a week, though last week I changed 40 gallons in an attempt to reduce the nitrates from 20 ppm. It only dropped to around 15. A week later it is back up to 20 again.

The alges in our tank grow very slowly (a small amount of hair alge in the main tank, the cheto in the refugium) except for the corraline (red and purple) which has been increasing on the live rock quite well. It is my understanding that green alges require both phosphates, and nitrates to grow. The fact that our phosphate level is near zero (due to RODI water use?) probably explains the slow growth. Here is the question . . . if nitrate export through cheto growth is desired, isn't SOME phosphate required? Am I not fighting a losing battle with the nirtates if the alge can't consume them due to a lack of phosphate? I know it sounds crazy to think about deliberately adding phosphate to the system, but it almost seems that that's what I would need to do to get the cheto to grow and thus reduce the nitrates. What do you guys think? Does the tank need more time to mature? (The majority of the live rock came out of a matured tank) Do we need more rock?
 
I am going to take a wild guess and assume that your crushed coral is holding uneaten and rotting food and nutrients since Aug 06'.



500w Halide ??????
 
bpd964 . . . (2) 250w halides. I use a vacuum siphon on the sand/coral, and the goby turns it constantly. I do not see very much debris when I use the siphon. I also have been deliberately stirring up the bottom when I do water changes. Won't these things keep the crushed coral reasonably clean? Is straight sand better? I though my nitrates, being the end product of the cycle, simply were not being removed fast enough by the rock/alge/water changes.
 
Not sure if reading correctly but did you say that your actinics are "always on"?

Also, from what I've read, TOO much stirring of the sand could actually be a bad thing. And, if you are stirring everything, once the debris is in the water column, is it getting to the overflow and getting skimmed out or does it just settle back into the sand?

On the water changes.. don't change too much out too often because your bacteria is going to get pulled out faster than they can tackle your nutrients..

I am gonna stick around and see what the experts have to say about this..
 
Yes . . . the light schedule is:

Actinics ON
10K ON
Halide 1 ON
Halide 2 ON & 10K OFF
Hadlide 1 OFF & 10K ON
Halide 2 OFF
10K OFF
Actinics OFF & Moonlight LEDs ON
Moonlight OFF

I siphon from the water column after stirring the sand (I stir the sand every other water change) so that I remove as much of it as I can. I also use floss in the sump (which I replace every day) to trap this debris.
 
Here's a picture
137197Our55G.jpg
 
Draco, you have chaeto in your fuge? Is is growing? Growing chaeto should drive your nitrates close to zero. If it is not growing, it may be iron-limited, so adding a chelated iron supplement (Kent or other) might help.
 
I didn't know that about the cheato and the iron . . . it's a healthy green, but it's growing slowly. I've been adding Kent Marine essential elements which of course has iron. Not sure if that is enough.
 
Bottom line is your system is trapping nutrients. I'll leave the "where" to you. Bottom line fixing anything but that is a band aid.
 
Take everything out and get that Crushed coral OUT! Just use sand (or since REEF-DADDY is watching bare bottom) that crushd coral is your problem. Stiring sand might not be good...Are you using RO/DI water? Are you dosing 2 part.. Give that a try..

Good Luck...
Chuck
 
Multiple trial and error band-aid applications on an unknown condition seems more radical to me. just my .02
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348025#post9348025 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Last_Tang_o
Breaking the system apart seems to radical a step. Won't that disrupt the established microsystem? :blown:


It will disrupt things to a certain extent but in the long run it will be better to fix the problem. The live rock should be able to handle the bio load. DSB, BB will both work if managed correctly, crushed coral just won’t and it will always be a battle. 15 gallons per week is a lot on a system that size, imagine if only 10-20% per month was done. We won’t even get into po4!!!!!!
 
I managed to remove about 15 lbs of the crushed coral without tearing down the tank. I poured the sand/coral mix through a net that passed the sand, and I returned the wet sand to the tank. Even disturbing the sand/coral to this extent did not horribly cloud the water. It did cloud it, but it settled out REALLY fast . . . like within 15 minutes. I still have my doubts that there was that much debris what with the starving sand sifter starfish, and the crazy digging goby (not to mention the hermit crabs, snails, coral banded shrimp . . . ) but I thought I'd remove what I could without going to extremes. One thing that I have since discovered however . . . when I disturbed the cheato in the sump, it was like shaking out a dust rag! HUGE cloud of junk! I think perhaps THIS is where all the junk has been hiding?
 
. . . also . . . no one has actually answered my original question . . . does the cheato NEED phosphate to grow? There's no measureable phosphate in the tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348558#post9348558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by draco_myst
. . . also . . . no one has actually answered my original question . . . does the cheato NEED phosphate to grow? There's no measureable phosphate in the tank.

chaeto can't grow without phosphates, but that's why you don't have any detectable levels of phosphates in your system..."thanks to the chaeto."
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348708#post9348708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by benray4fun
chaeto can't grow without phosphates, but that's why you don't have any detectable levels or phosphates in your system..."thanks to the chaeto."

yup, what he said. :D
 
OK . . . that's what I figured . . . BUT . . . if the chaeto is limited by the phosphates, then it can't help me with the remaining nitrates, right???
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348810#post9348810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by draco_myst
OK . . . that's what I figured . . . BUT . . . if the chaeto is limited by the phosphates, then it can't help me with the remaining nitrates, right???

Again, you really, really, really need to either start over or find your source of excess nutrients. If you don't find the source and handle it, your problems are just going to get bigger. Then you you are gonna need bigger band-aids until your tank crashes and you'll end up starting over again anyway.
 
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