Phosphate vs Nitrate

[Obi-dad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348558#post9348558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by draco_myst
. . . also . . . no one has actually answered my original question . . . does the cheato NEED phosphate to grow? There's no measureable phosphate in the tank.

It can get enough phosphates to grow even if you can't measure it, so it is probably not likely that it is phosphate limited unless you are using massive amounts of GFO. It can be iron-limited though, which is why I suggested an iron supplement.

Reef-daddy is correct in that crushed coral is not a preferred substrate. But if you can get the chaeto to grow properly, it should be able to reduce your nitrates. If that doesn't work, like people have said, you may want to consider changing or removing the substrate.

 

[jelwyoming]

You might also give a look at some of the usual sources of nitrates that we overlook sometimes such as; filter bags in your sump, foam pump suction filters, bioballs in the sump.....Any other sources that keep us from reaching zero nitrates?

 

[Herpn]

I am at work but when I get home and have some time I will post of my tank with CC and with sand. Huge difference! I have a buddy who refuses to remove his CC and his tank looks like crap. I removed my CC in doing so my tank has has taken off. Just ask Staninct, he changed his tank over to sand from crushed coral and it made a huge difference.

I have been using CC for over 20 years and have always had cyano. The only time I did not have cyano is when I was using sand or bb... Just taking some of the cc out and putting sand on the top could cause more problems. You are only traping the detritus under the sand and the phyiscs of sand falling through the larger crushed coral will become blatently obvious is the near future. THE SOONER you can get all the CC out the soon your tank will get healthy...

Sorry but it is the ONLY WAY... It can be done in one day I have done it myelf and helped other dot it. Just make up your water befor hand let it mix for a few days, get several tupperwar containers put your live rock and coral in them fill your tank then rusn some HOB filters and you tank will go through a cycle but with all that live rock it will not be a huge cycle...

You have a nice set up with good equipment so your tank should look much better. You are doing amost everything correct so it is time to get the payoff...

Good Luck....

 

[bpd964]

We all have good intentions and want to help you but I am getting the feeling that you are waiting for someone to suggest something that you actually want to hear. Something that doesn't involve tearing your tank down or removing your CC or worst, a quick fix.
In any case, my suggestion at this point is to research this issue as I am sure many many people before have experienced this including myself and hopefully you will find something that works for you and what you are attempting to accomplish. Again, good luck and try doing a little search here and there. You would be surprised how much you can learn and apply to this hobby.

J

 

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9348810#post9348810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by draco_myst
OK . . . that's what I figured . . . BUT . . . if the chaeto is limited by the phosphates, then it can't help me with the remaining nitrates, right???

Unless your runining po4 remover, zeovit or some other means of exporting po4 you will not be able to get your po4 to a level(0) where chaeto won't grow.

 

[draco_myst]

Actually bpd964, I'm waiting for someone to tell me why CC leads to trapped debris, and sand does not. It's a major undertaking (and risk) to remove all of the animals and rock from the tank. If I have to (and I'm actually inclined to think at this point that I have to) I'd like to know that I'm doing it for the right reasons. I know that there is an ongoing debate between then BB and DSB camps, and I don't want to even get in to that discussion. We like the natural look of the rock on sand . . . so DSB is a personal preference. The thing that kills me, is that when we set this thing up, we asked a million questions of the people at Wet Pets where we bought the tank, CC, and sand, and they never indicated that CC was bad. We asked what was best, and they said it comes down to how you want the tank to look. We took their word for it. Now, you guys are telling me that CC is bad (why it's bad, I don't yet fully understand), so if I take your word for it, I want to be darn sure this time that it's worth the effort, and risk to the animals.

 

[bpd964]

I understand and I am happy that you want to understand what the reasoning is behind the suggestions. I commend you for that.

It's MOSTLY because debris such as uneaten food and fish poop can easily get trapped and it's a bit difficult to remove. With fine sand, debris can collect as well but it doesn't get lost in the cracks as much and its easier for you to see and remove and it allows other creatures such as snails and hermits (clean-up crew) to remove it.. Also, since it mostly remains on top of the sand, your flow/current can keep it in the water column so it can be skimmed out.

 

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9350019#post9350019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by draco_myst
Actually bpd964, I'm waiting for someone to tell me why CC leads to trapped debris, and sand does not. It's a major undertaking (and risk) to remove all of the animals and rock from the tank. If I have to (and I'm actually inclined to think at this point that I have to) I'd like to know that I'm doing it for the right reasons. I know that there is an ongoing debate between then BB and DSB camps, and I don't want to even get in to that discussion. We like the natural look of the rock on sand . . . so DSB is a personal preference. The thing that kills me, is that when we set this thing up, we asked a million questions of the people at Wet Pets where we bought the tank, CC, and sand, and they never indicated that CC was bad. We asked what was best, and they said it comes down to how you want the tank to look. We took their word for it. Now, you guys are telling me that CC is bad (why it's bad, I don't yet fully understand), so if I take your word for it, I want to be darn sure this time that it's worth the effort, and risk to the animals.

The crushed coral allows detritus to build up in areas where you can't remove it. The detritus will sink into the open structure of the CC and rot. Wether you run a sand bed or BB, everything boils down to nutrients in and nutrients out......

 

[justincognito]

To make a long story short you need to do several things so you don't quit in 6 months after nitrates reach 200.

You can leave the curshed coral in if you add 4-6 inches of fine sand underneath and increase your flow over sand bed.
As for the "debate" between DSB and CC, the only actual experiment done was by Rob Toonen. The results were you get nitrate reduction with as little as 1 inch of find sand. You need 4 inches of crushed coral to get the same affect. The bacteria that eat nitrate need an almost oxygen starved environment, fine sand packs together tighter and you get that no oxygen layer in as little as the one inch(plus a butt load of surface area for the bacteria to grow on) Crushed coral simply allows too much oxygen to flow through the bed. This is why the stirring and vaccuuming is especially detrimental.

You probably won't find a lot of detritus in your bed now because it all gets digest and broken down by zooplankton, worms and bacteria. But one end product is nitrate which floats away into your tank. So you gravel is "clean" but is still a nitrate factory.

You need to rearrange your rockwork to get more flow in the middle of the pile. This will allow more flow throught the rock and over the sand bed increasing access for the denitrifying bacteria in the middle of the rock to eat the nitrate.

Sorry for the long response but you NEED to either have 4-6 inch sand bed under you curshed coral or just get rid of the crushed coral altogether. I actually use a thin layer (1/2")of CC on the top of some sand beds, but i have to make sure to the flow is higher in these areas.

As your tank is now you will only conitnue to have increasing nitrates. I wish you luck
ROck!!

 

[NoSchwag]

What happens to all of the poop after the worms and such consume the detritus?

 

[draco_myst]

CC is gone . . . along with quite a bit of brown silt - fingers crossed that nothing dies. About 20 gallons replaced out of about 80 in the system.

 

[Herpn]

Good Luck, even if you happen to loose something (you should not) it will be worth it for the long hall. I know it is hard to swallow but well worth it...

Cheers,
Chuck

 

[justincognito]

Keep an eye on Ammonia and Nitrite. You are most likely to have a nitrite spike than anything else. Adding and couple bags of prepackaged live sand will take care of it in half a day. To add new sand at this point, turn off your pumps and add it a few cups at a time right onto the bottom. Once the water clears remove the floss. Long term the floss will cause nitrate to build up. YOu can change it every other day to prevent the growth of bacteria that produces nitrate. Also any crap caught in it will start to breakdown and produce phosphates and nitrogenous wastes.

 

[draco_myst]

The floss is changed daily, and is only there when the water looks like it needs it. I have 3 bags of live sand (20lbs/bag or 25, I don't remember which) in this system between the tank and the fuge. The water cleared well within 2 hours, and was crystal clear in the morning. I'm not expecting a spike . . . no feeding for the last two days, and the real filtration elements in my system, the rock, and the original sand, are still there, and were kept wet. Although I stirred up the sand in the bucket, and dumped the resulting "mud" I didn't rinse the sand with fresh water. I also took some of the fuge sand, and added it to the tank (I had a LOT in the fuge . . . 2 bags for just 25 gallons). The fuge live sand was only added about 2 weeks ago when we replaced the rubbermaid sump with a 40g tank, so it was seeded, but not full of debris. Ammonia read zero this morning. Nitrate didn't change much. It went from about 25-30 to about 20, but then I did replace 20g of water. I expect the nitrate will take time to drop unless I replace the majority of the water, which I'm not inclined to do (at least not yet).