Pinnate batfish on LA?
- Thread starter JamesJR
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stunreefer
Reef Hugger
That surprised me too... gone now though!
I was going to jump on the borbonious anthias until I noticed the price - considerably higher than last time DD offered them (although those are some FATTIES!).
I was going to jump on the borbonious anthias until I noticed the price - considerably higher than last time DD offered them (although those are some FATTIES!).
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I disagree- somewhat. A BIG issue with pinnatus in captivity is getting them to eat (possibly from collection practices), and keeping them with suitable tankmates. Apparently, this one has gone to prepared food (as per the listing), and how can LA keep someone from putting it with improper tankmates? This isnt an obligate consumer, like some other fish- it is just a fish with a poor poor track record due to husbandry.
melanotaenia
New member
I Agree. With the proper specimen and long/tall tank to provide swimming room should prove to be a good combination to keeping this fish long term. It is already eating rather well per the link that was on DD so half of the work has already been done. It was a great looking fish .
Terra Ferma
New member
Agreed - they make no mention of it's requirements. A couple extra lines on suitable systems and tankmates wouldn't be that hard to add, although the real shame is that people are still encouraging the collection of these things.
melanotaenia
New member
We had one live in our store display that was 800 gallons for years without problems. It lives with tangs and angels. It actually was a pretty good eater but would not compete aggressively for food. They are not easy fish to keep though. I definitely do not want to give that impression'
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
This treads into far different territory though. You are suggesting that vendors have the ultimate repsonsibility in the hobbyist buying the "right" livestock? I couldnt disagree more. I could make the same argument for a HUGE number of fish. How many occelaris clowns perished after stupid "Finding Nemo" came out? Are they wrong for therefore selling occelaris clowns? Are they wrong for selling an angelfish that may or may not eat in my tank? Or aselling me a chromis that may or may not get eaten by my lionfish? etc etc etc.
I think your comment is misapplied. Its not that keeping this fish is a non-trivial matter, but BUYING fish is a non-trivial matter. If it is acclimated appropriately, and eats properly and soundly, why would it not thrive? Again, I would suggest that the vast majority, if not ALL of the pinnatus you saw perish probably were housed, handled, and prepared improperly. And this is the reason they couldnt thrive.
Again, I will respectfully disagree completely about the vendors "responsibility" in making the aquarist informed. Forums, such as RC, go to extreme lengths to inform aquarists of potential fish issues.
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Terra Ferma
New member
So I take it you are not much for industry self regulation or "best practices."
Agreed - it is not their responsibility, it is their choice. It doesn't happen at most places, but if a hobbyist were to ask about that fish at one of the better fish stores the sales person would probably clue them in to its requirements. It still sucks they bought a fish that, to my knowledge, no private aquarist has thriving (or living for more than 6 mos) in a home system. But if you are going to purchase for resale (and thus support wholesalers ordering of, and the collectors collecting of) this fish than at least your are giving this fish a better shot at living with some helpful advice as to it's requirements.
Again, I don't expect most places to refrain from ordering high failure fish or provide even rudimentary advice on species care, but there are places that do and I commend them. To me everyone who does not do this is a sub par establishment (obviously there are many of them). I realize everyone save the end customer is in this for the money but there are a growing number of places that get by just fine without turning a quick buck on interesting/attractive fish with a high mortality rate.
Its great that people are pushing the limits of hard to keep species, but the associated mortality is pretty depressing. And warehousing these hard to keep species for a month and claiming them to be fit, eating and ready to go is kind of giving people the wrong idea - yea it made it a month, but a lot of fish can make it that far and longer and still expire due to improper care.
Respectfully, I think it is time for hobbyists to push for (or vote for...with their wallets) better livestock collection and care practices. It sucks we are taking so much from the ocean for a hobby, and it really sucks that so much of that dies. But if we can prevent collection of high mortality fish, or at least educate people on these specimens that are collected - that is meaningful improvement right there. RC, as you point out, is a great place to make people aware of these issues as well as livestock care.
I think that as it relates to LADD there is an inherent understanding by the vast majority of consumers that purchase from there of the requirements of a fish such as this.
I have a hard time believeing that random hobbyist, new to the hobby would stroll through DD, see that fish, say I just have to have it, and order it with no knowledge of what it's issues were.
Now certainly that is not absolute and there will be some of that.
Had this fish been in a random LFS and no direction given to the consumer concerning its inherent issues, I woudl agree whole heartedly. But I do believe that the vast majority of consumers on LADD are not your basic hobbyist. In fact I woudl say that the consumers of said site are probably in the top 10% in knowledge and ability in this hobby.
Anyhow, as it relates to the Pinnatus, its issues have always been a reluctance to eat, if that problem was solved, and adequate (read vertical) tank space is made available, it is not a difficult fish to keep.
I have a hard time believeing that random hobbyist, new to the hobby would stroll through DD, see that fish, say I just have to have it, and order it with no knowledge of what it's issues were.
Now certainly that is not absolute and there will be some of that.
Had this fish been in a random LFS and no direction given to the consumer concerning its inherent issues, I woudl agree whole heartedly. But I do believe that the vast majority of consumers on LADD are not your basic hobbyist. In fact I woudl say that the consumers of said site are probably in the top 10% in knowledge and ability in this hobby.
Anyhow, as it relates to the Pinnatus, its issues have always been a reluctance to eat, if that problem was solved, and adequate (read vertical) tank space is made available, it is not a difficult fish to keep.
missaplied? Umm as I have said I have yet to see one of these live past one year in captivity and I don't think that LA is really able to do that much better than many of the public aquariums I have seen fail with this species. The care of this species is not simply a matter of getting it to feed and have it keep feeding as I have seen numerous specimens succumb that were feeding. For the statistically insignificant fraction of a percent of these fish that do make it the owners should realize their specimen is an outlier.
You seem to imply that there is nothing wrong with a seller making a buck on the whims and or ignorance of a customer and I beg to differ. It is wrong to take advantage of a customer selling them something they aren't suited to keep just as it is wrong for the customer to buy something without doing research on the subject. These are live animals we are talking about and we all have a responsibility to ensure that we can provide the best care possible for our animals.
You seem to imply that there is nothing wrong with a seller making a buck on the whims and or ignorance of a customer and I beg to differ. It is wrong to take advantage of a customer selling them something they aren't suited to keep just as it is wrong for the customer to buy something without doing research on the subject. These are live animals we are talking about and we all have a responsibility to ensure that we can provide the best care possible for our animals.
melanotaenia
New member
Read my post above; we had one for years in an aquarium and it lived happily; finally went to a private hobbyist who was a regular customer at the store. who also had an 800 gallon tank at his home. It continued to do well when it went to the new owner.
I am not saying that this fish is easy to keep, but it is possible to keep the fish for longer than one year. It has been done.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Ask Jay Hemdal, he has legitimate real life experience, and is likely documented (to extreme). No offense, just because YOU havent seen it, doesnt mean it cant happen. And as I have mentioned, it appears the largest hurdle with this species is in collection practice, and getting them to each, which this seller seemed to have resolved. So what makes THIS FISH a bad sell? If you feel there is a magical force that dooms these fish, so be it. But your opinion on that is no more valid than mine.
Please dont put words in my mouth. I NEVER ONCE implied "there is nothing wrong with a seller making a buck on the whims and or ignorance of a customer". I think the opposite. If this were Joes fish shack, or a wholesaler list, I would feel different. But in this case, an industry pinnacle has resolved the well reported issues in this specimen, and as such, I dont think there is a reason to get out the pitchforks and torches.
Let me ask you this- do have have the same disregard for suppliers that carry deep water fish (whom often perish in collection)? Or certain anthias (who often refuse food)? Or large fish (which arguably are better left for wild reef fecundity)? All these will use the same logic that you have deemed the standard, and would, realistically exclude nearly EVERY retailer.
So, lets leave it as I mentioned, and respectfully agree to disagree.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Again, I would ask words NOT be put in my mouth. I am absolutely NOT for lack of self regulation or "best practices". But, in this case, I agree 100% with Makenna. LADD is not a place where uneducated hobbyists make their purchases. Quite honestly, there is a feverish "Black Friday" charge at the gates every night at around 7 PM EST. How many aquarists, in your honest opinion, have bought their first, second, third, etc fish at LADD?
I agree and applaud your inetntions, regarding the "expendable" livestock discussion, but I can make that VERY SAME argument for almost any species we keep. As I analogized ealrier, should we not keep or promote Occelaris clowns, because so many died after "Finding Nemo"?
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Overall, I am not trying to be argumentative with anyone here. You have a different opinion on this than I do. So be it. Rather than be at each others necks, we should just agree to disagree.
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