Planning a coral propagation system

[sammy33]

raaden -
Thank you for checking out my propagation thread. I have actually decided not to use the airlifts for a couple of reasons. The main one being that the Super Luft pump is just loud enough to be very annoying whenever I am working in the coral room. The constant humming/buzzing noise in the background can wear on the nerves.

The other reason I removed the air lift is it produces a bit too much spray. I am using T5's in a canopy and small fixtures that are only a few inches from the surface and the splash was a problem for me. I have actually been able to minimize the spray by adjusting the height of the output and have solved that problem but the noise was the dealbreaker. I did try placing the air pump under a box but it got too hot and I don't think it will last as long running constantly hot.

For anyone considering Air Lifts-
The air lift system does produce a ton of flow very efficiently and has the capability to run several different tanks from a single pump if you use valves. I think it would be more beneficial on a larger system and in a more industrial setting where the salt creep is less of an issue. The use of pendant lights hanging at least 8" above the water would eliminate most of the splash on your lighting. I would also consider placing the air pump in another room or in covered storage outside to minimize the noise.

 

[sammy33]

July 06 Update

July 06 Update

Polyps not opening -
I had some issues with some of the zoanthids and sarcophtyon not opening. I tested my water and everyting seemed to be in line with pH, CA, Alk, Temp, SG, Nitrate, Phosphate - all in check.

Hmm? :hmm2:

For almost two weeks the sarcophyton (and some zoanthids) did not open. After I tested the water I decided to change out the carbon with a Poly-filter pad. Low and behold the pad turned greenish brown after a few days indicating that it may be removing ammonia...which I did not test for. Oops!

So then I immediately tested for ammonia and found that there was a very low level of ammonia in the tanks (after running the Poly-filter). I can not explain it. The system must be experiencing some die-off from live rock (I added about 15 lbs) or maybe a snail or two croaked? It could possibly still be cycling in the sense that the DSB in the refugium is still maturing?

To skim or not to skim?
This prompted me to start thinking about a skimmer. One of the things I did not take into consideration was the amount I have been feeding this system. Phyto additions 3-4 times a week. I have also been rinsing my cheato from my SPS system in this system to provide some extra floc for my Neptheids. This is just a bit much for my young prop system to handle (hence the low level ammonia) so I decided to add a skimmer.

My first try was a Seaclone 100 I have. Now this is an "OK" skimmer but it was just not enough for this system and always seems to be quirky with the air adjustment.

Second skimmer was a Lees Counter Current. I was thinking this would be a good fit since I was using the Super Luft air pump for the air lift system already. Very easy to just plug in a couple more air hoses to the Lees skimmer to get it running. It actually performed well and pulled some nasty brown skimmate but I decided to not use the air lifts and the noisy pump (see previous post) so the Lees skimmer was out. Its a shame because it was only $20.00!

So in comes the third skimmer. I didn't want to aggressively skim but wanted to remove some of the pollution (that I am adding) to help control ammonia. I decided on an AquaC Urchin. The sump drain area is just big enough for the Urchin and it is doing a great job. Took about week to "kick in" but it is skimming fairly well.

This has resulted in some much happier corals (and less ammonia) with open polyps, clearer water, more stable pH and has helped with oxygen levels. I am now going to slowly increase phyto additions until I am back up to about 3 times a week.

Purple Up -
My softies have also responded well to a little dosing of Purple Up. I actually started dosing the Purple up for calcium and noticed it also has some Iodine in it. The Xenia do seem to grow more quickly with Iodine additions and it also seems to benefit the other softies. Note that Carib Sea's suggested dose is way too much (calcium for my tanks) and I only use about a 1/3 of the recommended and will likely cut down to a 1/4 of the recommended.

Some new pics

Green Pineapple Tree (Capnella)

Eagle Eye (Zoanthid)

Red People Eaters (Palythoa)

Purple People Eaters (Palythoa)

 

[Snarkys]

Re: Airlifts

Re: Airlifts

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7455567#post7455567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sammy33
Here is my new ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œtoyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ I am experimenting with.

This is a Super Luft Pump SL-38 piston style air pump. I am going to try using airlifts in each prop tank for additional water circulation using this pump for the supply. The specs on this pump rate it as 38L/hr (liters per hour) at 18 watts. This translates to somewhere around 650-700 GPH of water movement in a Ã"šÃ‚¾Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ airlift that is about 10ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ tall! Note that the Mag 7 uses about 70 watts to generate 700 GPH of flow!

The pump comes with a nifty four output adjustable valve. These valves will allow me to adjust the flow to each tank on the fly.

The airlifts will be a bit more efficient than adding three power heads (energy savings) and would give me about 175 - 350 GPH of additional flow in each of the prop tanks for about 6 watts per tank. Having one or two lifts in each tank along with individual heaters would allow me to temporarily isolate each tank from the system for quarantine or treatment if I needed to. I may also run the air pump on a battery back up system for an additional fail-safe. Worst case in a power outage ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ I would still have water movement in each tank.

After a trip to the big orange box hardware store to get some Ã"šÃ‚¾Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ PVC and a few parts this is what I came up with. It is a combination frag rack/airlift frame. I took it out of the tank and set it on the eggcrate material to take a picture. Many thanks to dendronepthya for sharing his airlift frame design.

The back of the frame has a couple of Tââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s with short lengths of PVC on the bottom for support and a couple of elbows to create the cross frame. The front corners of the rack are the airlifts with elbows on the top and bottom. The elbow on the top has a small 3/16ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ diameter hole for the airline tubing to run to the bottom of the lift.

This was the best solution I could come up with for this size tank . There is, unfortunately, very little reference material on airlift design. I might try building another one of these racks with Ã"šÃ‚½Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ PVC to try and save on real estate but the Ã"šÃ‚¾Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ seems to work well for the airlifts. The flow from these things is quite impressive and I am really happy with the performance of these lifts (so far). Here is a shot with the circulation pump turned off and only the airlifts running.

I have two lifts in this center tank as it will require the most flow. The air outputs for each lift is cut down to about half of the total. I could crank them up and get even more flow but things get pretty messy with that much air and saltwater blowing around. One thing I did initially was that I made the airlifts a bit too tall. Having just the very tip of each of the elbows sticking out of the water allows the water to still flow nicely but cuts down on the amount of spray produced.

My best guess on the GPH flow that they are producing is roughly about 175-200 GPH from each airlift. I calculated that the air pump that I am using is capable of about 700 GPH and if I distribute the total flow evenly among four airlifts this will give me about 175 GPH on each.

The breakdown of water flow:
Each tank is about 24 gallons. The return pump from the sump (Mag 5) supplies about 140 GPH to each tank with another 175 GPH from a single airlift. This gives a minimum of 315 GPH (tanks 1&3) and a max of about 490 GPH flow (tank 2). This should work for well for the corals I have selected.

so that one pump provides enough air to do how many airlifts like that ?

 

[raaden]

Sammy,
Nice pics...
I think the skimmer will go along way to reducing your ammonia issues and, atleast until the DSB gets going, will offset DOC levels from the phyto feeding.

Snarkys,
If calculated and setup well he could easily get about 300GPH per tank from 6 outlets. In a larger tank where larger piping can be used he could bump it up about another 100GPH per tank. I think in sammys case the nice part is that it runs all three tanks with one piece of equipment.

 

[Snarkys]

I want to do it on two 29's. that the right pump to use or is there a better option ? whats a good size pipe ?

 

[raaden]

As a general rule the larger the pipe diameter the greater the flow, but in the case of smallish tanks like that you will probably not want to use a huge pipe for space issues. You could probably even get away with a diaphragm pump depending on how much flow you want. A diaphragm pump would be much less expensive and quieter, and since you won't need a whole lot of head pressure it would work fine, although I would go for a "real" air pump if I could. Not sure if they make a blower that small or not but that would be even better. I would use atleast 1.5" pipe as the flow seriously degrades in pipe smaller than that.

I checked out the thread on the prop mods and that is pretty interesting stuff. I love to see people pushing the envelope. My only issues would be that it is alot of laminar flow, but with some diverters in a large tank it may make sense. The thing I like about airlifts are that you can put as many different points of flow in as you like with no increase in equipment or electrical costs.

For a greenhouse system I am planning I am going to be using two fairly large piston pumps to provide flow, skimming and water movement between tanks for about the costs of 2 GenX 800 gph pumps. Total volume will be around 2600 gals.

I would not want to even think about how much power I would be using if I had to use regular pumps and power heads.

 

[Snarkys]

ya after looking into it i see how that airlift could be more efficient than the modded power head because it doesn't all come from one source

 

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7806194#post7806194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snarkys
ya after looking into it i see how that airlift could be more efficient than the modded power head because it doesn't all come from one source

The airlifts provide a massive amount of controllable flow and are quite efficient as far as energy costs. The lift tubes diameter and length can influence how much flow you get through the pipes.

I would think the Super Luft pump SL-38 would be a good choice for the air power for 2 - 29g prop tanks. Coralife makes a larger one (SL-65) but it seems to be less efficient than the smaller one (SL-38). Note that these pumps make a bit of noise.

I would consider using 1" PVC/elbows for the lifts as you will likely increase your flow a bit more than I did by using only 3/4" pipes.

Using a SL-38 you could probably put two 1" lifts about 17-18" tall in each 29 and get about 400 to 450 GPH in each tank for roughly 9 Watts for each tank! :smokin:

The other benefit of the airlifts is you will get basically zero heat transfer. No submerged pumps.

You can direct the outflow from the elbows to create even laminar flow or have them cross to create turbulence.

You can control the salt creep by raising/lowering the output elbows near the surface. If you hang your lights 6-8" off the water you can avoid the splash on the lights from the airlift outputs.

 

[fillibar]

A note about the shelving you got. Is that the type with the particle board shelves? I would worry about water or humidity issues. I had a bunch of those in our basement (prior to the fish tanks) that all started to mold on the bottom. The basement had some extra moisture at the time (the whole street has bad drainage) and every one turned into mold paradise. The particle board was too light, not even MDF. Just a warning if you got those...
Otherwise this looks like a cool setup.

 

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7812764#post7812764 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fillibar
A note about the shelving you got. Is that the type with the particle board shelves? I would worry about water or humidity issues. I had a bunch of those in our basement (prior to the fish tanks) that all started to mold on the bottom. The basement had some extra moisture at the time (the whole street has bad drainage) and every one turned into mold paradise. The particle board was too light, not even MDF. Just a warning if you got those...
Otherwise this looks like a cool setup.

Yup...it's cheap particle board. I have not had any issues so far but anticipate that the water from my fragging activities will eventually wear out the particle board. I did place sheets of plywood under each tank so the particle board is not supporting the tanks but makes a nice work surface.

I have plans to move this system in the next several months and will replace the boards with plywood. I also plan to seal the new plywood with a few coats of polyurethane to make it much more water resistant.

 

[skeeter-doc]

I have plans to move this system in the next several months and will replace the boards with plywood. I also plan to seal the new plywood with a few coats of polyurethane to make it much more water resistant.

Great Idea! This is an awesome thread and what a setup, I would like to see more pics of the entire thing, and each separate tank as well, ...

 

[sammy33]

Lighting and feeding

Lighting and feeding

I have finally gotten some lighting over all 3 tanks in the prop system and have added more corals.

The first tank (left) has the two - 24w T5 HO setup with the Midday 6K and the Pure actinic lamps. The center tank has a 70w 13k metal halide and 2 - 40w Dual actinics. The last tank (right) actually has the normal output T5's (two fixtures) with 1-14w 10k and 1- Actinic 03 each. The T5 lights still amaze me at how bright they are!

I have added all of the corals, live rock and cleaners from both of my nano reef tanks. I took down my 10g nano and also a 15g nano. The 10g had mostly softies and the 15g was all SPS. All of the corals and my one fish (yellow watchman goby that I have had for about 5 years) are all in these 3 tanks now. I am actually trying to make room for a 125g tank that will be on the other side of this room in our den in the basement.

I have gotten a bit off track with the original plan because I have been planning the large 125g reef tank. No worries though as I should have the lighting re-arranged in the coming weeks and will also re-distribute the corals when I set up the larger tank.

The growth so far on some of the corals is pretty amazing. I have been feeding quite heavily with Phyto-feast Live and also the Roti-feast. I feed the 1st tank (softies) with the phyto about 3 times a week and then feed the 2nd tank (sps) on alternating days about twice a week. This is a total of about 5 days a week of feeding this system and the growth is accelerating.

This heavy feeding requires close attention to the water parameters and careful control of the skimmer. I have tried to turn the skimmer off during feedings but have forgotten to turn it back on (more than once). I have thought of using some sort of reverse timer to automatically time the skimmer to be off for about 30 minutes while the phyto and roti-feast circulates through the system? Any ideas on this?

 

[Rekonn]

For the "off timer" there's a couple ideas discussed in this thread. The simplest being a regular timer with a bunch of ON tabs.

 

[CaptainPicard]

Does a prop tank with no LR and no substrate need to cycle?

 

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7899918#post7899918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rekonn
For the "off timer" there's a couple ideas discussed in this thread. The simplest being a regular timer with a bunch of ON tabs.

Rekonn -
Many thanks for the link. That is just about exactly what I was looking for.

I have one of those timers with the tabs sitting in the "fish box" and will give it a try. I think leaving the skimmer off for an hour or so will help with the feeding. I have been getting big nasty cups of skimmate on the days I am feeding so my hunch is that I am skimming the phtyo-feast out prematurely.

 

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7915019#post7915019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CaptainPicard
Does a prop tank with no LR and no substrate need to cycle?

I don't think it would go through the Ammonia - Nitrite - Nitrate cylce. This process usually occurs when some sort of bio active media is present including LR or LS.

My system did go through a cycle period as I added a deep sand bed to the refugium and some live rock in the prop tanks. I am sort of an "old salt" so I couldn't see the system without some sort of denitrification mechanisn. In my case it is the LR and deep sand.

Problem with a prop system completely devoid of sand and rock is that there is less ability to process ammonia - nitrite. You could rely on a skimmer and heavy flow to keep matter in suspension and process waste. Combine good flow and a skimmer with a remote DSB and some live rock and you increase your ability to process the extra food that a propagation system will require.

 

[Shawnts106]

My first try was a Seaclone 100 I have. Now this is an "OK" skimmer but it was just not enough for this system and always seems to be quirky with the air adjustment.

haha, seaclone, haha, your funny....

Seaclones should be BANNED! and BURNED!

 

[sammy33]

Late – September update

Late â€"œ September update

I have been quite distracted from my propagation tanks by several things. The main thing that has distracted me is I have been working on taking down two nano reef tanks and then setting up a new 125g reef tank. My apologies to anyone I have disappointed with the lack of updates to this thread.

I did add some new lighting to the middle tank. The middle tank of the three ended up being the holding tank for a good number of SPS frags from my 15g and 10g nano reefs. So I added my 150w Aqualight Hang-on fixture to this tank. I also changed the lamp from the 14K Coralife to an XM 20K. The 14k lamp that came with the fixture seemed more like a 6700K lamp with a more yellow appearance. This lamp did nothing as far as color was concerned but did promote the growth of the corals as well as hair algae. The 20K lamp seems to sustain coral growth, promotes better coral color and does not accelerate algae growth as the stock lamp seemed to do. The SPS are recovering from a browning.

Pic of the middle tank

I also experienced excessive algae growth in the first tank with the T5 lighting. One of the lamps was a 6K Midday lamp that had about the same symptoms with poor coral color, fair growth and accelerated algae. I swapped to a Aquablue + (11K) lamp and have had much better results, fair growth, much better color and less algae.

The other thing I waited far too long for was adding cleanup critters. I think that adding cleanup critters to a prop tank is just as important as it is for a display aquarium. I added several turbo snails and a few scarlet reef hermits to each tank. This was a major step forward in algae control.

Feeding
I have from the beginning fed these tanks heavily. I have been using phyto-feast and roti-feast (Reef Nutrition) about 3-4 times a week alternating. This basically equates to daily feedings for the system. I have been adding less than the recommended amount but still feeding often. I use the ball valve on the return plumbing to take each of the tanks offline for a period of about 15 minutes while I am adding the foods. I then turn the ball valves back so the skimmer and refugium can filter out what’s left.

I have noticed that the main benefit from the phyto is really the increase in copepods. I feel that the phyto is feeding the micro crustaceans which in turn may be feeding the corals. I do notice a stronger feeding response from the roti-feast especially from the LPS corals. The Caulastrea and the Acanthastrea seem to be growing faster from the steady feedings.

This extra food may also be accelerating the algae growth. I did back down a bit on the feedings after I changed the lamps in the hopes that a more natural correction would happen.

Flow
I have settled on some power heads for additional flow. The small Mini-jet 606 pumps use only 6 watts of power and produce a fair 153 GPH. This is a good amount of water movement for a 24g aquarium (with the flow from the returns). I did add two power heads to the center tank with the mostly SPS corals. I would like to use some sort of a wave timer to run all of these power heads.

The other thing I was looking into was battery back ups. I did see a thread where someone had mentioned that the UPS DC power supplies had a different wave pattern (sine wave?) than AC pumps and could damage AC pumps. Any ideas on power back up?

 

[RobinsonFam1]

looks good bud! sooner or later i will have to set up my thread here too!

 

[sammy33]

Really late - update on my frag tanks

Really late - update on my frag tanks

It has been about ten months since I updated this thread and I have had lots of things happen in my prop tanks.

Some upgrades
I got new lighting for the center tank. This tank was planned to be the higher light tank for SPS, Clams, etc. The original fixture on this tank was my old 10g nano reef hood with 70w HQI and 2x40 PC actinics. This fixture was fair light for this tank but not enough as the SPS corals in this tank lost color. I then upgraded to a Coralife 150 HQI hang on with an XM 20K lamp. Nicer colors with this setup but the PAR on this setup was about the same as the 70w setup! (I got a PAR meter too..btw!)

So I decided to go back to a 10k lamp but wanted to keep the nice blue I was getting from the 10K lamp. I knew the PAR would be higher with the 10K. I also wanted to be able to move the fixture to get into the tank. My solution was a Sundial:

This is a 150w DE (electronic ballast) with 2x32w PC. The bulbs are a Ushio 14K HQI and 2 x 32 w dual actinic (420nm/460nm). This setup gives me the higher PAR that I was looking for and after several weeks with the animals in this tank really started to thrive. This tank actually started to look more like a nano reef than a frag tank!

Calcium
After adding several SPS frags, a few clams and the new lighting I started to notice the calcium going down. I decided to add a DIY kalk doser to the system. My calcium and alkalinity before the doser was always a bit low around 360ppm ca and 7dKH for Alk. Now the test are always around 400ppm ca and 9dKH for Alk.

Here is a short video tour of the kalk doser:
DIY Kalk Doser Video (10.3MB .wmv 1:40)

I have more stories about this setup but will save them for another post.