Please help...I want to be clear about Hyposalinity Ich treatment

[tthouston]

I knew all the fishes should stay in QT for minimum 4 weeks to treat ich by hyposalinity after the white spots disappear on the fish's body. So my question is why are we need to wait 4 weeks after those fishes out of white spots same mean the fishes out of ich? Can I move those fishes out of QT right after the white spots disappear and put fishes into other QT with setup hyposalinity as same as the 1st QT. The 2nd QT won't have any ich drop out from fish so I don't need to wait other 4 weeks to kill ich in the 1st QT, then I can slowing increase SG at 2nd QT. Or I may wait for only 1 week after move fishes into 2nd QT. So the total for Hypo treatment is 7 days to 10 days the fish had white spots at 1st QT and 7 to 10 days increase SG at 2nd QT are 20 days. (better than 7 days for white spot + wait 6 weeks at hypo+ 10 days increase SG = 59 days for using 1 QT)
Please give me some answer to clear what I think.
Thanks,

 

[Spar]

Basically what you are asking, or what your hopes are, is weather Hypo kills the Protomont stage (when the Trophont jumps off the fish). I have always wondered this also. I have wondered this with regards to copper as well.

If the answer is yes then in theory that plan would work. Maybe I'm missing something though

One warning about hypo though is that there are hypo-resistant strains. And administering hypo correctly has proven a challenge for a lot of people.

 

[tthouston]

Thanks for your reply. The ich had 4 stages and in the trophont stage the parasite burrows into the hosts(fish) skin. The fish will have tiny white spots on it's body. Once it has burrowed, it is constantly moving around killing the surrounding cells of the fish. The parasite then feeds on the dead cells and body fluid. As the parasite feeds, like anything else, it grows. The white spots on the host become larger. These parasites can get into the gills of the fish causing heavy breathing. The difficult breathing can cause the fish to become lethargic. This stage lasts 3-7 days depending on the temperature of the water. After the parasite has matured it drops off of the host and attaches itself to the substrate, entering the Tomont stage. That is every body read as I read so Can I move the fish at this time and put it into other QT? I don't need wait the ich going through all the stage!
I did hyposalinity treatment for ich but it take too long and I think I can skip few weeks if I have other QT. I would like post up here to confirm what I am think is ok to do that.

 

[Spar]

There are actually more than 4 stages, that narrative just jumps over a few. to clarify, the Protomont stage I referred to is the stage in between Trophont and Tomont.

I'm just not personally comfortable answering what hypo kills v what it doesn't.

Snorvich?

tthouston, curious if you have looked into the tank transfer method? It is a quick method only taking 12 days.

 

[tthouston]

As I read, there are 2 good treatment are good so far are Hyposalinity and cooper. I like Hypo treatment than cooper treatment, only thing I hate it is times, so I just trying to transfer more than one QT as they showed to reduce some other stage if I have other QT to transfer my fish. I still check the fish to be sure no more white spot on fish in the other QT, or else then I will transfer fish again into other QT after the last white spot disappear.

 

[Spar]

No, there is definitely a 3rd method and that is tank transfer method. There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum. And it is by far the most effective method.

Also note that the white spots are not an effective indicator for whether ich is still on the fish. A fish with a good immune system will still likely have ich in the gills where you won't see any visible signs.

 

[tthouston]

No, there is definitely a 3rd method and that is tank transfer method. There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum. And it is by far the most effective method.

Also note that the white spots are not an effective indicator for whether ich is still on the fish. A fish with a good immune system will still likely have ich in the gills where you won't see any visible signs.

As I understand is when your tank ich free, the fishes won't have ich even the fishes stress for some reason. I agreed with you about the fishes have good immune system if fish had ich in the past, but fish will has ich again if it stress. My point is with or without stress, the fishes won't have ich if the tank was ich free.

 

[snorvich]

There are actually more than 4 stages, that narrative just jumps over a few. to clarify, the Protomont stage I referred to is the stage in between Trophont and Tomont.

I'm just not personally comfortable answering what hypo kills v what it doesn't.

Snorvich?

Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2"“18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8"“12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time; we suspect that CP and copper can affect it as this time. However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against all common treatments that we use in treatment.
The encysted tomont undergoes many divisions, producing numerous daughter tomites (approximately 100 to 1000, depending upon strain and temperature [Colorni and Burgess 1997]). These tomites are released as theronts, the free-swimming infective stage which is also the stage most susceptible to most (but not all) salinity treatments or chemical treatments such as copper or CP. In tank transfer tomites, as theronts, are never released hence the effectiveness of tank transfer of eradicating cryptocaryon irritans (ich)

 

[snorvich]

As I understand is when your tank ich free, the fishes won't have ich even the fishes stress for some reason. I agreed with you about the fishes have good immune system if fish had ich in the past, but fish will has ich again if it stress. My point is with or without stress, the fishes won't have ich if the tank was ich free.

That is not exactly correct. If a tank is ich free, stress is irrelevant with regard to this parasite.

 

[snorvich]

No, there is definitely a 3rd method and that is tank transfer method. There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum. And it is by far the most effective method.

Correct. Since tank transfer eradicates ich during the front end of the life cycle the inherent variableness of the back end does not come into play at all. Remember, for example, that there is at least one strain of ich that is saline resistant (not treatable with hyposalinity).

Also note that the white spots are not an effective indicator for whether ich is still on the fish. A fish with a good immune system will still likely have ich in the gills where you won't see any visible signs.

this is the area where most people incorrectly assume that with no "white spots" the problem is solved. Definitely not true.

 

[tthouston]

Thanks every one. So my idea about using hyposalinity and transfer more than one QT to reduce times is not working, right?

 

[snorvich]

Thanks every one. So my idea about using hyposalinity and transfer more than one QT to reduce times is not working, right?

Tank transfer takes 12 days assuming you execute properly. Shorter than that will not work.

 

[tthouston]

Tank transfer takes 12 days assuming you execute properly. Shorter than that will not work.

That is good for me if it is only 12 days or 15 days. 60 days is too long for me.:lmao:

 

[Reefahholic]

That is not exactly correct. If a tank is ich free, stress is irrelevant with regard to this parasite.

x2...

the fish can be stressed out of his mind, but if ICH is not present on the fish or in the system...there will not be a breakout.

it's not a myth...you can and will have an totally ICH free system if you elimanate it via TT method.

 

[Spar]

Thanks every one. So my idea about using hyposalinity and transfer more than one QT to reduce times is not working, right?

I actually think that it 'could' work, and in theory (described below) it makes sense using a similar plan to yours. The problems I see it are that (1) this is similar enough to tank transfer method that you may as well do that instead given it is more effective, (2) hypo is stressful on fish when going back up in salinity, (3) there are known hypo-resistant strains of Ich and it is proven difficult to administer correctly. All that said, even if this method would work, I personally wouldn't do it nor recommend it.

So in theory this 'should' work (someone shoot me down if I missed something).

(1) start hypo, bringing down to 1.009
(2) allow for 8 or 9 days (adding in some buffer) for the Trophont's to jump off. as Snorvich's commentary above notes, it is not guaranteed that the protomont, tomont nor tomite stages will be impacted at this point, but...
(3) move the fish to a 2nd QT already at 1.009... obviously not sharing equipment.
(4) some Theronts may have recently hatched, however they would in theory die from the Hypo before burrowing into the fish (Trophont stage), expect for the hypo-resistant strains of course
(5) within X hours (I'm not sure what X is, but figure a day or two) any remaining Theronts would be killed by the Hypo, and no more Ich would be present.

Seems like the same would work for Copper as well...? I mean, if hypo and copper are geared to kill the Theront stage. If that stage didn't die, then that would mean the parasite has already burrowed into safety into the fish, and the process starts all over again...

 

[Deinonych]

No, there is definitely a 3rd method and that is tank transfer method. There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum. And it is by far the most effective method.

+1

Tank transfer is the best treatment method for cryptocaryon IMO/IME. It's about as close to 100% effective as you can get, provided you execute it properly. I've given up on chemical treatments as they are often hard on the fish, and take much longer to implement. With TT, it's 12 days and you're done (followed by a 30 day observation period). Fish don't seem to mind it, since they get a water change every three days.

 

[snorvich]

Why reinvent the wheel? Tank transfer is easy, quick, and very effective. Hyposalinity is so easy to screw up, why bother?

 

[tthouston]

Thank you for all information about ich treatment. I am on the way of Hyposalinity treatment and tank transfer at same time and near finish the treatment. I will be carefully to increase the salt level very slowly. Next time if it happen again, I will doing tank transfer only as your advice.
Thank you,

 

[tthouston]

I actually think that it 'could' work, and in theory (described below) it makes sense using a similar plan to yours. The problems I see it are that (1) this is similar enough to tank transfer method that you may as well do that instead given it is more effective, (2) hypo is stressful on fish when going back up in salinity, (3) there are known hypo-resistant strains of Ich and it is proven difficult to administer correctly. All that said, even if this method would work, I personally wouldn't do it nor recommend it.

So in theory this 'should' work (someone shoot me down if I missed something).

(1) start hypo, bringing down to 1.009
(2) allow for 8 or 9 days (adding in some buffer) for the Trophont's to jump off. as Snorvich's commentary above notes, it is not guaranteed that the protomont, tomont nor tomite stages will be impacted at this point, but...
(3) move the fish to a 2nd QT already at 1.009... obviously not sharing equipment.
(4) some Theronts may have recently hatched, however they would in theory die from the Hypo before burrowing into the fish (Trophont stage), expect for the hypo-resistant strains of course
(5) within X hours (I'm not sure what X is, but figure a day or two) any remaining Theronts would be killed by the Hypo, and no more Ich would be present.

Seems like the same would work for Copper as well...? I mean, if hypo and copper are geared to kill the Theront stage. If that stage didn't die, then that would mean the parasite has already burrowed into safety into the fish, and the process starts all over again...

I did exactly what you said up here. Hopefully, everything is fine with my fish. With Hyposalinity, I don't worry like you said at number 4. If I am just do tank transfer only, I am really worry about this important stage and turn out all my DT has ich.

 

[tthouston]

one thing I want to mention here is even salt level down to 1.007 my fishes is still happy and eat like pig. I always keep it at 1.007 - 1.008 level to make sure no Theronts stay alive in any my QT.