Plenums and the wasting "option"

[voodoody]

barryhc,
I misunderstood your construction. Certainly egg crate on top of the manifold containing numerous small holes would not be disadvantageous. I have a similar number of small holes in my manifold. The test flushes demonstrated very rapid flow through the one inch center pipe of the manifold. This exits through a bulkhead at the bottom of my overflow and through another bulkhead on the tank bottom.

I do agree that the amount and frequency of plenum wasting is likely to be the key. ldrhawke was doing very frequent wasting and this may have resulted in an inabiltity to maintain the anaerobic zone.

I plan on flushing every 4-6 months or so. I am hoping this will rid the DSB of hydrogen sulfide and perhaps some accumulated metals at a minimum. I don't think I will be exporting much in the way of phosphates as this will be tied up in the bacteria. I am not expecting a massive die off of the anaerobic bacteria, but I will measure nitrates etc. to verify daily after I open the plenum valve.

 

[salty joe]

Membrane?

Did you read about substrate, gravel, plenum, eggcrate, screen, "critter blocking" screen, PARTICLE MIGRATION, etc., earlier in this thread?

Let me know if it remains a question.

Yes, I did read that but I don't understand how gravel will stop fine sand from finding its way into the plenum.

 

[CaptiveReef]

Plenums and wasting

Plenums and wasting

Maybe we're getting somewhere here, but the "upper portion" of the bed needs to remain Aerobic in order to produce the NO3 in the first place, Right? ( unless you're favoring bio-balls, which I'm not )



CaptiveReef: Yes the upper portion of the bed will remain Aerobic which will produce Nitrate.

Then the Anoxic portion of "the bed" which is "under" this "Upper Aerobic portion, can perform the "work" that you describe. Am I still confused?


CaptiveReef: No your not confused, you got it!



Or less possibly, I don't know for sure about any magic number for Aerobic zone depth, I'm still looking for information, and I still believe that the zone depths will be other than published information if "simulated continuous flow" is performed on the substrate. > "oxygen gradation"

I'm still particularly interested in the Phosphate processing, that I seem to understand, is occuring in the "lower Ph" Anoxic and anaerobic portions of "the bed".

Any thoughts here?



CaptiveReef: The Phosphate processing in the Anoxic and anaerobic portions of the bed are pretty easy to explain. The Phosphate is eventually broken down into it's final form which is amino acids,Ref: Daniel Knop Giant Clams.
In the reef setup of course elevated levels of Phosphate will cause algae and inhibit the calcification process.
And here is another kicker, zooxanthellae need the following elements for photosynthesis, carbon dioxide, phosphorus, nitrogen, etc. Ref: Dana Riddle The Captive Reef.
I have always followed the practice of allowing these elements, but not at saturation levels.
With the use of a refugium, and Phosphate media, levels can be kept extremely low, but with this practice of doing the controlled draw from below the bed the waste levels will be removed before it can contribute to the phosphate production.

IMO I feel this Plenum/DSB draw will benefit the tank in the removal of waste that has been introduced into the bed from diffusion. It is a form of nutrient export. Hey I'm for it!!

CaptiveReef




Thanks again, this is progress. > barryhc

 

[voodoody]

CaptiveReef: The Phosphate processing in the Anoxic and anaerobic portions of the bed are pretty easy to explain. The Phosphate is eventually broken down into it's final form which is amino acids,Ref: Daniel Knop Giant Clams.

Amino acids contain only nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. The exception are methionine and histadine that contain sulfur as well. Phosphates are not incorporated into amio acids. There are numerous organic molecules that do incorporate phosphorus, however, including ATP and phospholipids of various types.

 

[CaptiveReef]

Amino acids contain only nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. The exception are methionine and histadine that contain sulfur as well. Phosphates are not incorporated into amio acids. There are numerous organic molecules that do incorporate phosphorus, however, including ATP and phospholipids of various types.

I'm pretty sure this may cover phosphates ties with amino acids.
The 2nd to last sentence refers to phosphates.


THE 3-PHOSPHOGLYCERATE FAMILY OF AMINO ACIDS

Through this series of reactions, you should be noticing that there are common principles
that are used in the pathways again and again. Often, carboxyl groups are activated by
phosphorylation and then reduced to make an aldehyde before some other reaction occurs.
The series of reactions seen in the TCA cycle that react acetyl CoA with an alpha keto acid
and then proceed to shift an hydroxyl group and decarboxylate the product, are used in the
fungal lysine pathway and the leucine pathway. There are a variety of activating groups
that can be added to carboxyls and hydroxyls. These include phosphates, CoA, succinate,
acetyl groups or AMP. You should be aware of similarities in the different pathways.

In biosynthesis, all 20 amino acids are made from only 7 precursors from the central
metabolic pathways.

1. fructose 6 phosphate precursor to aromatic amino acids
2. glyceraldehyde 3 phosphate precursor to aromatic amino acids
3. 3-phosphoglycerate precursor to 3-phosphogycerate family of amino acids
4. phosphoenolpyruvate precursor to aromatic amino acids
5. pyruvate precursor to pyruvate family of amino acids
6. alpha ketoglutarate precursor to alpha ketoglutarate family of amino acids
7. oxaloacetate precursor to aspartate family of amino acids

 

[barryhc]

Membrane?

Did you read about substrate, gravel, plenum, eggcrate, screen, "critter blocking" screen, PARTICLE MIGRATION, etc., earlier in this thread?

Let me know if it remains a question.

Yes, I did read that but I don't understand how gravel will stop fine sand from finding its way into the plenum.

A grain size of 2mm dia. will effectively block "migration" of "particles" down to .31mm dia.! Smaller particles will pass through.

How often do "we" change out "membranes" in RO units.

I don't want anything clogging the plenum. .3mm dia. particles will pass right through the .040" dia. ( 1mm ) holes that I have in my plenum. My plenum is not going to get clogged.

I will post a graphic representation some time soon. It's just Geometry.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[salty joe]

My concern is sand ruining the shutoff valve. I look forward to checking out your graphics.
Thanks,
Joe

 

[barryhc]

My concern is sand ruining the shutoff valve. I look forward to checking out your graphics.
Thanks,
Joe

Thanks Joe, while I remain very interested in the Nitrate and Phosphate capabilities of the "wasting Plenum", It is really the plumbing outside the aquarium, that I haven't found time to put that much effort into.

I'm not overly concerned that it will represent a problem, but, it is questions like these that need to be dealt with, in order to have a "reliable" system.

Firstly though, I see it here, as a "design solution", to accomplish the original objective first, and then deal with "subordinate problems" in a practical fashion, without compromising the original objective.

I see the original objective as being the design and use of a "wasting Plenum" to process Nitrate, phosphate, and "whatever else", that we can process, or "waste". I am happy thus far with the "internal" portion of the design.

It is certianly time now, to consider "in ernest" the remainder ( outside portion ) of the system, and your concern here is appreciated.

My test setup is going "over the top", and then . . . . There will be many configurations.

My "big one" setup is going to be about 200 gal., and will probably be drilled etc., if I can pull that off.

Where can I get a glass tank with acrylic "bottom"?

I expect that particles etc. are going to exit the "plenum", and I particularly want them to. I believe that is important to the original function.

I remain intrigued with your original 2 valve "U tube" drain system. A "particulate trap" or filter may need to be incorporated.

If "we" trap this stuff in the substrate or plenum, how are we going to clean or change this once "filled up"? Get it?

Let's work on it some more and see what happens.

Thanks, > barryhc

 

[salty joe]

I plan on using Southdown sand and constructing a deep sand bed, only my sand bed would have a plenum underneath. I don't know how small Southdown sand particles are, but they are pretty tiny. So I do not envision any sizable particles working their way through the Southdown sand to clog things up, but maybe I'm wrong. I do know that Southdown sand is real hard on plastic parts that move. So I guess I was not quite right when I said no moving parts, there is a valve to turn. Maybe a two inch drain trap before the 1 inch valve would catch the sand. I have seen traps with a plug at the bottom to unscrew to release whatever is in there.

Concerning the U tube, the same thing could be achieved by running a horizontal piece of 1 inch pipe from the plenum drain directly to a verticle piece of PVC pipe (two or 3 inches perhaps) that is taller than the water level in the aquarium. Of course, you would still need a valve at the plenum drain and another at the very bottom of the vertical PVC.
Joe

 

[barryhc]

Thanks Joe. I agree that nothing significant is going to get through the Southdown Sand to block the plenum. It would likely be the Southdown Sand itself that would clog the plenum.

A shallow layer of 2-4mm gravel on top of the plenum screen should inhibit particles larger than .3 mm from getting into the plenum area to block your feeder holes. Then the "Southdown ", of course.

Only particles very close to the feeder hole size can block the hole. Try blocking a 1mm hole with a 2mm particle, It will fall away from the hole when the "flow" is off.

I'm working on that "Graphic" now. I have a 3 hr. scanner driver download "in progress". If "the old scanner" will run on the new xp drivers, I'll have some graphics this afternoon. ( I hope )

A 1.5" I.D. pipe holds .0077 gal. per linear inch, so 16" of this pipe would hold one pint of water. So for my case, 15" of this up to just above the tanks water level, with some 1/2" I.D. piping below, ought to give the 1 pint "waste volume" for my particular setup.

Am I with you here Joe?

My test setup ( the 27 gal. hex ) is going over the tank top with "U" tube, and then back down.

This means that I have some "intermediate volume" to consider "only when checking the effluent".

Otherwise, I don't think the second "U tube" collector that you describe causes any difficulty for anyone without "drilled tanks", like me. ( and obviously not for those "with" drilled tanks )

Automation and timing, are coming up soon here, for me, and anyone else who wants to use the "High Frequency" type.

Heh voodoody, can you send us to LDRHawkes' previous thread. I know he was using his computer with X10 technology at one point. Review would be prudent here.

Thanks all! > barryhc

 

[barryhc]

Joe, now that I'm correctly remembering the original "value" of your "U tube" idea, It seems that the U tube gizmo is going to allow us to accomplish a specific "draw volume", without any fancy timing for the draw volume itself.

Then "we" only have to time for the number of draws "per day", or "per week", or whatever. This is much easier than trying to switch pumps on and off for 5 second intervals etc.

We could also put a volume adjustment pipe into the collection pipe, from the top, to fine tune "volume" after the original installation. Now we don't have to be "overly fussy" about the exact draw volume , at the time of installation.

The "system" remains adjustable.

What do you Think? Thanks, > barryhc

 

[salty joe]

I don't plan on using any pipes with holes in them in the plenum. Just a deep sand bed with a plenum space underneath. The tank would have a drain in the middle of the bottom. When the plenum drain valve is opened, the entire plenum would be under negative pressure. It seems to me that this would pull fairly evenly across the entire bottom of the deep sand bed. And if the sand bed is constructed from Southdown sand, it would probably be a fairly slow draw.

To start with, I am considering draining about 10% of the plenum area once a week and fine tune from their.

The ability to adjust the volume of the collection pipe sounds good. I don't quite understand what you mean though. Details please.

 

[barryhc]

I don't plan on using any pipes with holes in them in the plenum. Just a deep sand bed with a plenum space underneath. The tank would have a drain in the middle of the bottom. When the plenum drain valve is opened, the entire plenum would be under negative pressure. It seems to me that this would pull fairly evenly across the entire bottom of the deep sand bed. And if the sand bed is constructed from Southdown sand, it would probably be a fairly slow draw.

Yes, I see your plan. The entire area would be under negative pressure, however, that "vacuum" would not be "even". I can't say just how much imbalance that would represent. The thicker the plenum area ( water only ), the more even the vacuum. The slow draw would also help the "even-ness".

To start with, I am considering draining about 10% of the plenum area once a week and fine tune from their..

I like the total monthly volume. At least we can fine tune this system, heh?

The ability to adjust the volume of the collection pipe sounds good. I don't quite understand what you mean though. Details please. [/B][/QUOTE]

The "particle migration" graphic first, I still have about 1 hour left on the scanner driver download.

If you put a smaller capped tube down into the "collection riser tube", the collection tube can't hold as much water.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[salty joe]

If you put a smaller capped tube down into the "collection riser tube", the collection tube can't hold as much water.


Good idea!

 

[barryhc]

Thanks Joe, My 3 hr. driver download failed. I'm on the phone with HP. "Voice-mail tag"! :mad2:

A threaded adapter at the top, or whatever, with vent holes, to allow filling, and keep bugs out. Change to whatever you want whenever you want. How could it get any easier?

Thanks again > barryhc

 

[voodoody]

The link to the original controlled plenum wasting thread is here:dsb heresey

Salty Joe, please explain your plan in more detail.

I don't plan on using any pipes with holes in them in the plenum. Just a deep sand bed with a plenum space underneath. The tank would have a drain in the middle of the bottom. When the plenum drain valve is opened, the entire plenum would be under negative pressure. It seems to me that this would pull fairly evenly across the entire bottom of the deep sand bed. And if the sand bed is constructed from Southdown sand, it would probably be a fairly slow draw.

I am not sure how this could be done without "short circuiting".

 

[barryhc]

The link to the original controlled plenum wasting thread is here:dsb heresey

I read most of the thread, the first 3 pages, and the last 3 that LDRHawke posted in. He had a lot of people interested, and was doing some very very nice work. ( too bad we can't contact him )

Thanks for the link, I will probably review it some more. Hawke was way ahead of everybody there, and obviously ran into some Nitrate processing difficulties.

You might be right about the anaerobic zone, for his "schedule". My 3 draws of one pint each day came "almost directly" from Hawkes' information.

You might be moving way too far away with the 4-6 mos. frequency, and I may be "far too often" at 3 times a day. Whatever volume and frequency makes the bacteria "happy" should be the best.

I think I'm quite concerned with the "fabric cover" that Hawke was using over the plenum. That sounds like a "membrane", and it sounds like a "clogging" mechanism, that could promote "channeling", and also contribute to strange "floc" and associated bacteria populations, that could further promote "channeling", and I'm not sure whatever else. Whew!

I really think that we should be looking for reduced restriction, from the top of the substrate, down to the plenum, to avoid any kind of "plugging", or "clogging" anywhere in the substrate.

In any case, we have several seriously interested members with "us" here, and remember that "many" good and useful systems may result.

It is most likely that all "versions" of the "Wasting" system, are going to benefit from our understanding of the bacterial populations, and "oxygen gradations" that are being "promoted", with whatever version of "Wasting" that is being used.

Again, I am looking currently into the "High Frequency" type, and I have given a fairly good description of the plenum construction and also a "substrate model", for this particular type.

Your version might be deemed the "Low Frequency" type, and "might" deserve some different, or possibly even less demanding, construction or substrate requirements.

Long term use and testing will, of course, help all of us to learn, and then refine our use of a wasting system, to an improved potential.

I think we're having to work harder at this than the "DSB camp", or the "BB camp", because there just isn't enough data or "feedback" from the use of "wasting", and we will simply have to develop it.

None of us are in competition here, let's keep the good ideas, and reading links coming.

Thanks all! > barryhc

 

[DougSupreme]

here some pics of my plenum piping based on Ldrhawke's recommendations.

I used a 0.031 dia drill bit to make holes in the piping approx 3 inches apart. I also staggered the holes one at 10 o'clock and the next at 2 o'clock, alternating down the length of the pipes.

 

["Umm fish?"]

DougSupreme,

That looks good. However, I'd be concerned that you don't have much in the way of crossing pipes. Yours will work, but you'll get much more even flow if you have more cross pipes. More like this:

|=|=|=|

than like this:

|===|

 

[barryhc]

here some pics of my plenum piping based on Ldrhawke's recommendations.

I used a 0.031 dia drill bit to make holes in the piping approx 3 inches apart. I also staggered the holes one at 10 o'clock and the next at 2 o'clock, alternating down the length of the pipes.

Doug, that looks a fairly large tank. what size is it?

How many holes, just out of curiosity? How did you cover the plenum?

Have you been running the system, and can you report any results?

Welcome to the thread, and thanks for posting! > barryhc