Polyps focused systems & GFO

[Pallobi]

I'm looking for some help on this from those who are polyp keepers. I wana know your feelings, ideas and experiences with the use of gfo on your systems. I'm kinda getting bothered by the algae on both the glass and tiles, substrate, and in and around the polyp frags and colonies. Snails produce a lot of detritus. Hermits annoy the heck out of my polyps, and I really don't wana run UV as I've taken it offline. The UV rocked for keeping the "dusty" algae of the glass and other surfaces.

I know gfo can affect alk a little and cause some precipitation. How much I don't actually know. I've heard gfo can really help with even the slightest algae. But I really don't know much or have much experience with it. Does it affect polyps the same way the lack of nutrients can affect sps, is one question I have. I'm pretty sure it can starve sps in some cases causing them to pale out, etc.

I would really appreciate some thoughts and assistance on this please folks. The more input I can get, the better.

Please help and advise me. I really just wana do the right things to give me the nicest display I can acheive, but the healthiest polyps first and foremost.

 

[A. Grandis]

Here we go again.
Hopefully this will be a very good thread!

There are many here that like to have some GFO ruling as their "nutrient control system", I would presume.

As you and almost everyone here nows already I'm opposed to the use of GFO, and therefore do not recommend it's use on the daily basis, simply because generally speaking:

1) I do not believe that the problem with phosphates and organic nutrients really need to be solved with GFO.
2) I don't use it and don't have major problems with algae.
So it's proven to be unnecessary IMO/E.
3) It precipitates CaCO3! That will drop the alkalinity and likely also the pH!
That you already know...
4) GFO isn't completely insoluble, but in fact it's solubility is significant, comparing to the natural sea water, and could cause irritation on some of the cnidarians and other inverts we keep.
5) Sudden drops in phosphates levels can, and most likely will, stress zoanthids and corals with zooxanthellae in their tissue. Such stress could lead the organisms with zooxanthellae to suffer and be vulnerable to diseases and infections, lowering their immune system! The balance of nutrients could be so harmed that the zooxanthellae just can't deal with the lower levels of phosphates available, specially if it drops below natural sea water levels. Hard to test for that!!!
6) Most of the problems with the GFO are normally related to stress and bleaching, reported by many.

You can control algae by removing organics with the help of some GAC.
Partial water changes will be a great way to export nitrates and many other organics too.
No need too much. About 10% a week would do a great job for many of us.
Feeding quality food will minimize the input of nutrients in the system.
No overfeeding or broadcast feeding!!
Target the food to the organisms without feeding the algae!!
The use of skimmer will export lots of nutrient related junk.
Vacuuming the substrate also is a good thing to do once in a while.
Make sure your lighting is well planned and managed.
Excess of light could be a big mistake when controlling algae growth.
Change your bulbs on time... make sure you've got a good spectrum combo running there!!
Etc...

You still wanna try it?
I would suggest to rethink about it.
Don't wanna rethink? Really?
Then please use a very tiny amount and do not follow the recommendations by the manufactures, but use much less than they recommend to start with.
Remember: it's not easy to make mistakes using GFO in the long run.
Many people have been there and they just be sorry for the mistakes they made.
The ones that aren't sorry don't even think their problem comes from the GFO.

Try to search for threads. Spend some time here and in the SPS from...

Tagging along...
I want to learn more about the subject...

Grandis.

 

[AlexRSM130]

I dont use GFO as well.
I am focused on weekly water changes and more natural methods like ATS scrubber.
I dont use GAC as well IMO although it polishes water it doesn't seem necessary if you can keep a weekly water change program.
A big Thank you to Grandis for his time for writing us all this info.

 

[Pallobi]

An ATS is something I really wana try too.

And Grandis, you say, "here we go again"... Implies sarcasm. BUT If there are other threads that have come up, I would love some links to read further.

I also don't read many of your posts, so I don't know what you may already be opposed to.

But you did share some great thoughts, and I appreciate that.

 

[glaukos]

Great stuff grandis:thumbsup:
These are usefull info that somebody could read here and pass on to other people elsewhere

 

[A. Grandis]

An ATS is something I really wana try too.

And Grandis, you say, "here we go again"... Implies sarcasm. BUT If there are other threads that have come up, I would love some links to read further.

I also don't read many of your posts, so I don't know what you may already be opposed to.

But you did share some great thoughts, and I appreciate that.

I was referring to long threads and writings, not to be sarcastic at all.
I like long threads a lot!!
I also meant the subject, once people like to bring that up from time to time.

How stupid am I?
If you've read my stuff perhaps you wouldn't have to open this thread (?).
Just kidding!!
All good.

Lets wait for the more on GFO from other people.

Grandis.

 

[reefwars]

ive used gfo aggressively for many many years now , i run it only zoanthid only grow systems, i find it works flawlessly for me and i find it very beneficial.



like anything if you dont use it correctly it will work against you vs in your favor.


for me whos in the business of growing and aquaculturing zoas im all about growth and color. while when im not using gfo i dont get high phosphate readings ( in fact nil) while in use i do get better colors.


over 10 yrs in the hobby mainly focused towards zoas over the last years i have found it to be very benfeicial


i dont run a typical display though i run coral beds and lots of them lol


i feel the same for carbon dosing , if its done in a hurry without the proper steps it will work against you but if done correctly has huge benifits.

is it needed ...absolutely not ....then again neither is a skimmer, water changes, food etc. but we all have our own uses for each of the things we run.



to get the colors i get i run very high par in shallow tanks , high flow and they are dominated systems with very little other corals in the mix.


the proofs in the pudding!!!


all pics are taken by me, all corals are aqua cultured by me to get the most colors and growth.( aquacultured vs wild!!)


pics are under whites only for the most part, and t5ho lighting for all tanks.














probably can see from the pics that gfo is def hurting my systms lol

 

[A. Grandis]

That's just great!!!
Could you please let us know how much you use for the system(s) and how many gallons every the system(s) have?
Great post!!
Nice pictures.

I see skimmers as a must for any saltwater system with fishes and/or inverts.

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

I found this nice article by Randy:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/

There is a lot of good info and some of the stuff I've posted is also in the article.

Grandis.

 

[reefwars]

That's just great!!!
Could you please let us know how much you use for the system(s) and how many gallons every the system(s) have?
Great post!!
Nice pictures.

I see skimmers as a must for any saltwater system with fishes and/or inverts.

Grandis.

absolutely

the systems are 72 x 20 x 14h each (several) and none run liverock only about 20-30lbs in th sump( a little rock goes a long way) the beds are all rack shelves about 3-4" below waters surface.

they all share a same sump to keep down on equipment costs, and bioload is basically work fish so fish that do certain jobs if memory serves me correct we have a total of 16 fish mostly tangs and wrasses. bioload is pretty low


for the zoanthid growout systems i go through about 1-3 lbs a month of gfo and about 3/4 -1lb per reactor( dont use this guide each system is different!!)



heres the way i see it



if you have readable phosphates then you need to start slow , you wont kill anything by starting slow same theory with light intensity, if phosphates are really low then you can go larger amount.

i use bulk HC gfo, products like rowaphoas are more aggressive so be careful on the type of gfo you use.

i also run gfo on our 415g store display as well the 300g sps reef system. for the lps tanks and softies we run passive gfo in a sock or bag.


years ago i use to speak heavily on feeding but over the past few years we have noticed what the sps guys have been saying for years....strong flow ( each of my systems has 80-100 x flowrate) and very high par lighting ( tanks are only 14" tall!!)

i run a very large skimmer and we 2 part dose as well a few selective zeo products(CS,SP,CV,AA)

for some of the displays at the store we carbon dose to keep nutrients low.

 

[Pallobi]

Great info, thanks for sharing!

 

[A. Grandis]

absolutely

the systems are 72 x 20 x 14h each (several) and none run liverock only about 20-30lbs in th sump( a little rock goes a long way) the beds are all rack shelves about 3-4" below waters surface.

they all share a same sump to keep down on equipment costs, and bioload is basically work fish so fish that do certain jobs if memory serves me correct we have a total of 16 fish mostly tangs and wrasses. bioload is pretty low


for the zoanthid growout systems i go through about 1-3 lbs a month of gfo and about 3/4 -1lb per reactor( dont use this guide each system is different!!)



heres the way i see it



if you have readable phosphates then you need to start slow , you wont kill anything by starting slow same theory with light intensity, if phosphates are really low then you can go larger amount.

i use bulk HC gfo, products like rowaphoas are more aggressive so be careful on the type of gfo you use.

i also run gfo on our 415g store display as well the 300g sps reef system. for the lps tanks and softies we run passive gfo in a sock or bag.


years ago i use to speak heavily on feeding but over the past few years we have noticed what the sps guys have been saying for years....strong flow ( each of my systems has 80-100 x flowrate) and very high par lighting ( tanks are only 14" tall!!)

i run a very large skimmer and we 2 part dose as well a few selective zeo products(CS,SP,CV,AA)

for some of the displays at the store we carbon dose to keep nutrients low.

Thanks very much for the info!!!
Well, shouldn't be the opposite?
Like, if the phosphates are readable you would be able to add more GFO?
I would think that if there is less phosphates to be removed ("really low", or "not readable") you wouldn't need GFO at all.
Am I wrong?

Questions: If you remove the GFO, with that very low bioload, would you have any problems with phosphates or algae because of it?
Why is the GFO so important?

I'm asking that because nowadays even some of the SPS guys aren't using GFO anymore. Before, long time ago, when we didn't have GFO, the presence of phosphates wasn't something from another world... Corals, zoas and clams need some phosphates in the water. They use phosphates for their metabolism too.

I'm just asking to understand more about your point of view and learn something from your experience.
Thanks again!!!
More pictures for your tanks, please!!

Grandis.

 

[Pallobi]

I think what reesfwars meant about using more when phosphates are less, is that the levels aren't gonna change as drastically as if they were higher. Like you wouldn't wana use too much if they were higher and have them drop as drastically. If the reading was lower to begin with, stripping them suddenly wouldn't have such an impact.

 

[A. Grandis]

Yeah, that make sense.
Thanks!
It must be that!!

But the only thing is that the system will actually "starve".
As I've said before, corals, clams and zoanthids will need some phosphates in the water.
That is one of the main reasons why GFO will cause bleaching and become a negative addition to a system. If bleaching doesn't take place the colors could fade and also the zooxanthellae population will also be affected by it!!!
I prefer to think that GFO could be used as a remedy to temporary phosphate problems, with caution.
In a regular basis I wouldn't use it as a primary tool, if you will.
It must work well when used correctly, but to see that as a daily basis addition to a system there must be a necessity.
I would think that his systems need those reactors and/or socks. If the organisms are doing well with it, by all means continue using!! The system must need that!! We can see algae in those plugs. Some phosphate must be present! So the GFO removes but there must be a continuous source of phosphates. Without the GFO the system will probably have an algae bloom!!
If he can answer that without the GFO the system will be still doing great, then he is wasting his money and time changing the GFO.

If it's impossible to solve the phosphate problem, with a continuous algae problem associated to it, I would think GFO could help. Other wise...

Bottom line: use as needed.
This is a good thread!

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

From the SPS forum today:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2289842
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2390866

Grandis.

 

[Postyoa28]

As someone who knows what a GFO Reactor accomplishes, but doesn't know what G.F.O. is an acronym for... I almost died laughing at the Google search results.

Search "gfo definition" into Google. Try not to laugh too hard at the juxtaposition of what you're expecting vs what the first Google prompted result is.

 

[A. Grandis]

GFO= Granular Ferric Oxide.

Grandis.

 

[Curtis1]

I have two BRS media reactors set-up. One for GAC and the other for GFO. I started having RTN and STN with some of my SPS. Maybe I was using too much ? I was following general guidelines ? I have since stopped using the GFO. No more incidents. I did leave it set up just in case I may need it at some point later. I do not really have any algae issues at the present. I do use the GAC. I feed a lot of frozen foods. When the carbon has reached it's limit, I can begin to smell the sump, a fishy smell. I also stock heavily.

 

[A. Grandis]

I have two BRS media reactors set-up. One for GAC and the other for GFO. I started having RTN and STN with some of my SPS. Maybe I was using too much ? I was following general guidelines ? I have since stopped using the GFO. No more incidents. I did leave it set up just in case I may need it at some point later. I do not really have any algae issues at the present. I do use the GAC. I feed a lot of frozen foods. When the carbon has reached it's limit, I can begin to smell the sump, a fishy smell. I also stock heavily.

A good way to minimize the phosphates into the system with frozen food is to let the cubes dissolve in fresh water, then you can use a fine net to get only the food particles, discarding the water with all the junk, including the phosphates.
Make sure you have a skimmer running and a good partial water change schedule.
GAC will help maintaining the organics in a low range and the spectrum fairly stable. You need to learn the saturation point between the input and what that quantity of GAC that you're using will remove from that particular system.

Grandis.

 

[reefwars]

oh man lol

Thanks very much for the info!!!
Well, shouldn't be the opposite?

nope shouldnt be at all, think about it a guy who has high phosphates and runs aggressive gfo is going to see a fast drop in po4 which is harmfull to coral that are use to higher po4, a guy who has very little has very little to drop does that make sense?





Like, if the phosphates are readable you would be able to add more GFO?


no see above and why....


I would think that if there is less phosphates to be removed ("really low", or "not readable") you wouldn't need GFO at all.
Am I wrong?


readable is quite the term , are we talking ppm or ppb?


im sure these questions answer themsaelves, THE SAME CARE IS TAKEN WHEN CARBON DOSING!!



Questions: If you remove the GFO, with that very low bioload, would you have any problems with phosphates or algae because of it?


really depends on how much po4 were talking about wouldnt it and what the corals are use to on a daily basis?



Why is the GFO so important?


i kinda figured that was obvious....its not for coffee!!!

I'm asking that because nowadays even some of the SPS guys aren't using GFO anymore.

really? are we talking tens of thousands or just the two links you posted lol i prefer to think of the hobby as more than a few guys on a forum, lets talk aquaria as a whole shall we?
thats forum based i would imagine , ask any lfs who sells phosphate media and im sure like ours they will tell you its one of the best selling products, so why is that then?


Before, long time ago, when we didn't have GFO,


we have always had gfo , maybe not in honalulu but the rest of the world has had ferric oxide for quite some time lol its really nothing new discovered overnight

the presence of phosphates wasn't something from another world... Corals, zoas and clams need some phosphates in the water. They use phosphates for their metabolism too.

absolutely , in fact without it life would cease to exist, i mean obviously were not talking a magic media that pulls it all out in one teaspoon overnight , its like any binding media it can only bind so much and can only do so much.

I'm just asking to understand more about your point of view and learn something from your experience.
Thanks again!!!
More pictures for your tanks, please!!


meh maybe another time....

Grandis.

Yeah, that make sense.
Thanks!
It must be that!!

But the only thing is that the system will actually "starve".
As I've said before, corals, clams and zoanthids will need some phosphates in the water.

sure, or life will cease to exist lol feels like im repeating myself here but .......it can only pull so much, gfo just doesnt have the juice to pull out all types of phosphates,it binds and then doesnt bind anymore but it will pull out whats low range....rarely does gfo get you to ULNS, youll need to carbon dose for that once your there then we will talk about what you need to do k.



That is one of the main reasons why GFO will cause bleaching and become a negative addition to a system.


read the above and put 2 and 2 together. filling a reactor , not testing and just plugging it in is probably going to end up in bleaching and why is that you ask?

its simple there was either alot of phosphates to start with , too much was used or testing wasnt done,m theres quite a few reasons all of which are solved by reading up on the product your going to use, the same applies to carbon dosing, meds carbon etc. see the relation between each of these?


If bleaching doesn't take place the colors could fade and also the zooxanthellae population will also be affected by it!!!



ummm sure lol this is what you have found personally?



I prefer to think that GFO could be used as a remedy to temporary phosphate problems, with caution.


but not permanately right? so all tanks running gfo for years(like me!1) are probable doomed right?



In a regular basis I wouldn't use it as a primary tool, if you will.
It must work well when used correctly, but to see that as a daily basis addition to a system there must be a necessity.


see at least some of the above!!


I would think that his systems need those reactors and/or socks. If the organisms are doing well with it, by all means continue using!! The system must need that!!


define need??



We can see algae in those plugs. Some phosphate must be present! So the GFO removes but there must be a continuous source of phosphates. Without the GFO the system will probably have an algae bloom!!
If he can answer that without the GFO the system will be still doing great, then he is wasting his money and time changing the GFO.


wow im starting to think youve never ran gfo have you? kinda like the guy whos an led expoert but yet does not or run an led light lol if its ok with you ill take my advice from those who have the experience!!




If it's impossible to solve the phosphate problem, with a continuous algae problem associated to it, I would think GFO could help. Other wise...

Bottom line: use as needed.
This is a good thread!

Grandis.

A good way to minimize the phosphates into the system with frozen food is to let the cubes dissolve in fresh water,


there was a test done on frozen juice from various foods as well as home made batches , turns out there really isnt much in the way of po4 in the juice, in fact what is there is processed by corals,clams etc. pretty quickly.


then you can use a fine net to get only the food particles, discarding the water with all the junk, including the phosphates.

uselss....



Make sure you have a skimmer running and a good partial water change schedule.
GAC will help maintaining the organics in a low range and the spectrum fairly stable. You need to learn the saturation point between the input and what that quantity of GAC that you're using will remove from that particular system.

Grandis.

ok so...my turn




when did you try gfo?

what was the result?

what were your parameters before and after you started?

how long did it take to see a drop in po4?

full tank shot or close ups of zoas?

when you tested your frozen food what was the reading?

when your corals bleached what was the process that made this happen , did it happen overnight and to all corals or just some?


how much did you use and how did you use it?

what are you testing po4 with?

in all honesty you obviously dont use gfo right? , did you at least give it an honest shot?


probably not so why are you so opposed to it because a friend had a bad run in with it?


heres my thoughts........if its a bad thing as grandis says it is , if its so bad why does the majority( yes i said majority) use it without issue?

if it didnt work wouldnt it not work all the time?

when i test i know that gfo can bring phosphates from 0.12 down to 0.03 overnight, my test tell me this easily i dont use hearsay from a friend this is coild hard facts , so is that bad or good from your experiences?


thanks!!


geesh lol