popeye treatment
- Thread starter azrednex
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Rondelet
New member
Only if you administer the antibiotics orally via the feed. Even then, you run the risk of knocking back the nitrifying bacteria in your filter. How much depends on many factors - negative impacts could be minimal or they could be significant. Factors that would affect collateral damage to your biological filter include, the type of antibiotic use, the incorporation rate, how it's incorporated (to the feed) and how much is eaten. Many antibiotics are poorly absorbed by the gut and can pass through the fish, but then bioavailability is difficult to quantify. However, even when this occurs administration via the feed is much more efficacious than administration via the water. If you can't move the fish and it's really valuable to you, you might give it a try. If you do, keep a daily watch on your water parameters to give you as much warning as possible should the bacterial in filter start to fall off. Also, be prepared to change a lot of water to help manage a potential depression in you biological filtration capacity.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
Paul B
Premium Member
I would not use antibiotics for pop eye. I have cured it dozens of times in seconds by just using a hypodermic needle and just inserting it behind the eye in the stretched tissue and sucking out the pus. Works instantly. If the infection comes back I do it again but this time I also inject a little injectable antibiotic behind the eye.
Pop eye usually heals by itself with no treatment.
Paul
Pop eye usually heals by itself with no treatment.
Paul
Rondelet
New member
Paul,
When you treat your fish, do you use an anaesthetic? I have to say that this is a fairly advanced procedure that I wouldn't recommend to any, but the most experienced aquarists or veterinarians. IMO & E, handling fish and applying injections (of any sort - and I've injected literally millions of fish) should not be done without sedating them first. However, the use of anaesthetics in itself is complicated and requires a very advanced level of expertise and knowledge.
When you treat your fish, do you use an anaesthetic? I have to say that this is a fairly advanced procedure that I wouldn't recommend to any, but the most experienced aquarists or veterinarians. IMO & E, handling fish and applying injections (of any sort - and I've injected literally millions of fish) should not be done without sedating them first. However, the use of anaesthetics in itself is complicated and requires a very advanced level of expertise and knowledge.
Paul B
Premium Member
Rondelet, I also said it usually cures itself.
I do not use an anesthetic on fish as I feel very strongly that fish do not feel pain. I have also performed this procedure on dozens of fish in stores and wholesalers without ever losing a patient. It is very simple, works instantly and usually requires no drugs.
As you know a fish with Pop eye has an area of very tightly stretched skin between the cheek and the eye itself. This patch of tissue is very thin and is only seen when the eye protrudes. I insert the small diameter needle into it very slightly and remove the pus. Of course if you stick the needle into the brain that would not be good, it has to be just under the skin.
I recently did this with my moorish Idol which is fully cured and suffers no ill effects. I usually do not recommend this to novice aquarists but the fish is a damsel and the procedure is akin to removing a splinter from your finger. I always tell people, If your eye was hanging out of your head and facing the wrong way and I could offer you two treatments one works instantly with no pain and the other one takes a week or two and may not work, what would you do?
Although I have been at this for fifty years I have been doing this procedure since way before there was a saltwater hobby and I was new to everything. You hold the fish in a net, or you get someone else to hold it, and you can do it right through the net. The entire procedure lasts about three seconds and when the fish is returned to the tank he looks like new. Sometimes a small air bubble emerges at the site of the injection which abates in a day or two.
I know you are going to ask me why I say fish feel no pain. I thought about this a long time and did not come to this conclusion overnight. First off a fish is an animal that almost never dies from natural causes, it is almost always eaten by something larger. Probably 98% or fish are eaten before they are a quarter inch long. Secondly from my own observation I have seen fish with severe looking wounds acting normally, as an example I once had a hippo tang. It was eating something and a triggerfish took the food out of it's mouth along with his lower jaw. Although mortally wounded the hippo continued to try to eat with no mouth even though he could not. He of course eventually died from malnutrition. I have also caught numerous flounders on a hook and in the process of removing the hook did considerable damage to the fish. I have re caught these same fish a few minutes later after I threw them back into the sea. I know you have seen videos of sharks that have had their intestines ripped out and they keep turning around to eat their own guts, doesen't sound like the fish is in pain.
Anyway that is my theory.
Have a great day.
Paul
I do not use an anesthetic on fish as I feel very strongly that fish do not feel pain. I have also performed this procedure on dozens of fish in stores and wholesalers without ever losing a patient. It is very simple, works instantly and usually requires no drugs.
As you know a fish with Pop eye has an area of very tightly stretched skin between the cheek and the eye itself. This patch of tissue is very thin and is only seen when the eye protrudes. I insert the small diameter needle into it very slightly and remove the pus. Of course if you stick the needle into the brain that would not be good, it has to be just under the skin.
I recently did this with my moorish Idol which is fully cured and suffers no ill effects. I usually do not recommend this to novice aquarists but the fish is a damsel and the procedure is akin to removing a splinter from your finger. I always tell people, If your eye was hanging out of your head and facing the wrong way and I could offer you two treatments one works instantly with no pain and the other one takes a week or two and may not work, what would you do?
Although I have been at this for fifty years I have been doing this procedure since way before there was a saltwater hobby and I was new to everything. You hold the fish in a net, or you get someone else to hold it, and you can do it right through the net. The entire procedure lasts about three seconds and when the fish is returned to the tank he looks like new. Sometimes a small air bubble emerges at the site of the injection which abates in a day or two.
I know you are going to ask me why I say fish feel no pain. I thought about this a long time and did not come to this conclusion overnight. First off a fish is an animal that almost never dies from natural causes, it is almost always eaten by something larger. Probably 98% or fish are eaten before they are a quarter inch long. Secondly from my own observation I have seen fish with severe looking wounds acting normally, as an example I once had a hippo tang. It was eating something and a triggerfish took the food out of it's mouth along with his lower jaw. Although mortally wounded the hippo continued to try to eat with no mouth even though he could not. He of course eventually died from malnutrition. I have also caught numerous flounders on a hook and in the process of removing the hook did considerable damage to the fish. I have re caught these same fish a few minutes later after I threw them back into the sea. I know you have seen videos of sharks that have had their intestines ripped out and they keep turning around to eat their own guts, doesen't sound like the fish is in pain.
Anyway that is my theory.
Have a great day.
Paul
Rondelet
New member
Paul,
Whether or not fish feel pain is currently a hotly debated topic in academic circles. In fact, there was a workshop on fish welfare here on the West Coast a couple of years ago and the consensus was that there was more going within a fish from a sensory perspective than previously thought. Actually, from my perspective pain is not really the issue. It’s the response to stimuli that I am more concerned about. Without a doubt fish respond to stimuli. My main concern when handling fish, especially when administering an injection, is to avoid physically damaging the fish. If a fish struggles while being handled, or reacts suddenly while you've got a needle stuck in its post-orbital space, there is a risk you will cause some significant lacerations. Further, It's my view that handling fish out of water is a major source of stress, which, as I'm sure you know, can have a big impact on immune function. Why take the risk? I don't disagree that fish are pretty tough and can take some pretty rough procedures, it's just not something I would advocate unless I was very confident that the person being advised knew what they were doing. Further, reducing the pressure from fluid build-up solves one problem - but doesn't usually address the root cause, which is often an infection. If you have to repeat the procedure and then administer antibiotics the fish is no better off (using your quick fix analogy). A simpler procedure would be to administer antibiotics via injection, at the onset of Pop-eye development as antibiotics are very efficacious when administered IP or IM and there is less risk of causing damage to the fish. I omitted this from my response as I feel even this procedure is best left to professionals who are properly equipped and trained such as veterinarians.
Keep in mind that I'm not questioning the procedure or your expertise. Rather, I'm just raising a red flag to caution many who may be reading this thread, but have little or no experience handling sick fish, that this procedure may not be as easy as you make it sound.
Cheers,
Whether or not fish feel pain is currently a hotly debated topic in academic circles. In fact, there was a workshop on fish welfare here on the West Coast a couple of years ago and the consensus was that there was more going within a fish from a sensory perspective than previously thought. Actually, from my perspective pain is not really the issue. It’s the response to stimuli that I am more concerned about. Without a doubt fish respond to stimuli. My main concern when handling fish, especially when administering an injection, is to avoid physically damaging the fish. If a fish struggles while being handled, or reacts suddenly while you've got a needle stuck in its post-orbital space, there is a risk you will cause some significant lacerations. Further, It's my view that handling fish out of water is a major source of stress, which, as I'm sure you know, can have a big impact on immune function. Why take the risk? I don't disagree that fish are pretty tough and can take some pretty rough procedures, it's just not something I would advocate unless I was very confident that the person being advised knew what they were doing. Further, reducing the pressure from fluid build-up solves one problem - but doesn't usually address the root cause, which is often an infection. If you have to repeat the procedure and then administer antibiotics the fish is no better off (using your quick fix analogy). A simpler procedure would be to administer antibiotics via injection, at the onset of Pop-eye development as antibiotics are very efficacious when administered IP or IM and there is less risk of causing damage to the fish. I omitted this from my response as I feel even this procedure is best left to professionals who are properly equipped and trained such as veterinarians.
Keep in mind that I'm not questioning the procedure or your expertise. Rather, I'm just raising a red flag to caution many who may be reading this thread, but have little or no experience handling sick fish, that this procedure may not be as easy as you make it sound.
Cheers,
azrednex
New member
I like your sentiment as sometime I think that when I skin a catfish or flay (or fillet) a crappie live it affects me more than the fish. I think that if I tried this and accidenally lobatomized this fish my Wife would not forgive me. What did you mean by " pop eye usually cures itsef with no treatment " as this is by far the most atractive solution to me. BTW thanks for the responses.
Paul B
Premium Member
Azrednex, I have seen it many times, probably most cases heal themself. There is much debate as to what causes it like an air bubble, an abrasion to the eye or an infection. Sometimes when I extract the fluid behind the eye it is just gas probably caused by an infection. Fish have an immune system like all animals and in time usually (but not always) infections heal. It takes a long time to heal pop eye because IMO there is not much blood flow, if any behind the eye. If you look at a fish skeleton you will see a large hole where the eye is that goes right through the skull. If there is an infection on the brain it would cause a fluid build up that would push out the eye to relieve preasure in the skull. Because there is no blood there it takes a long time for the body to eliminate the fluid there even if the infection is cured. That space is kind of isolated from the rest of the body that is why my method works instantly.
As Rondelet states there is some risk to the fish due to the proximity of the brain. There is also a risk that the eye will protrude enough to completely leave the skull tearing that skin I spoke about. If that happens the fish dies because water will enter the space further enhancing the infection.
As to filleting a catfish that is up to you but all fish we eat choke to death in a slow process. Millions of tons of fish that are caught every year end up dying from lack of water in the hold of a ship and the ones that do not get caught get eaten by something else.
I grew up in a fish market that my family owned, most kids had toys, I played with dead fish :lol:
As Rondelet states there is some risk to the fish due to the proximity of the brain. There is also a risk that the eye will protrude enough to completely leave the skull tearing that skin I spoke about. If that happens the fish dies because water will enter the space further enhancing the infection.
As to filleting a catfish that is up to you but all fish we eat choke to death in a slow process. Millions of tons of fish that are caught every year end up dying from lack of water in the hold of a ship and the ones that do not get caught get eaten by something else.
I grew up in a fish market that my family owned, most kids had toys, I played with dead fish :lol:
Popeye is often caused by trauma such as netting and the swelling often resolves with a little time and no medication. One thing to look for in determining if you should treat and what to use is whether or not the eye is cloudy. Also try to determine what caused the popeye.
TerryB
TerryB
Sullyman
Premium Member
Paul, I tried your method last night on my mystery wrasse. I was able to get a little out from behind 1 eye. The needle was hard to insert, what size do you use? I asked for the smallest needle, but I think I got a small syrange, the needle didn't look that small, short but not thin enough I'm guessing.
The other issue was trying to keep the fish still while doing it.
I thought I'd find it dead this morning, but it's in about the same state it was in yesterday before the drain.
I'm now really not sure what to do. If I can't get a finer needle, I won't try the treatment again, but will let the infection take it's course. I'm worried though that this fish hasn't eaten in a week.
I hope you see this Paul, and look forward to your input.
The other issue was trying to keep the fish still while doing it.
I thought I'd find it dead this morning, but it's in about the same state it was in yesterday before the drain.
I'm now really not sure what to do. If I can't get a finer needle, I won't try the treatment again, but will let the infection take it's course. I'm worried though that this fish hasn't eaten in a week.
I hope you see this Paul, and look forward to your input.
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