Possible New Cure for Ick?

[Chicago]

out of desperation and a know seriouc ick problem...goldflake and regal angel now have it bad. i decided to try to ginger treatmen.

i will post in a couple of days. most likely the angels will not have a chance to recover as they are not eating. in a last ditch effort to try and give them a chance and get them eating i did a freash water bath. they didnt work 10 years ago for me and probably wont now.

anyways as for the rest that only have it a little. i used a garlic crusher and let the jice drip on to nori. i also added it to some new life spectrum food that seems to soak it up nicely.

what i have noticed is that the fish in my tanks in the past where i was NOT DOING MONTHLY water changes did not get ick. now with the new salt and larger tank the ick is back after years off being gone.

anyone else notice this. i think it's always there either small or in large amounts and some how the new salt give it a little help, or are the fish a little stressed from the water change and they sucome to ick?

 

[seaofdunes]

as for all these skeptics vs. believers, does it really matter whether something so miniscule as ginger works or not? We already know there is no 100% cure. And the fact of the matter is that ginger is just about dirt cheap. So, if it is working with the ginger, whether it is the ginger or not, why stop? Haven't seen anybody post any negative effects caused by ginger.

 

[ATJ]

as for all these skeptics vs. believers, does it really matter whether something so miniscule as ginger works or not? We already know there is no 100% cure. And the fact of the matter is that ginger is just about dirt cheap. So, if it is working with the ginger, whether it is the ginger or not, why stop? Haven't seen anybody post any negative effects caused by ginger.

Yes, it does really matter and it matters because people will avoid using proven methods to both prevent and/or treat "Ich" and instead trust in a method that is neither proven nor known to be safe.

Quarantining all fish is an extremely effective method to prevent the introduction of "Ich" into a display tank. With a sufficient period of quarantine (6 weeks) any presence of "Ich" will most likely show as the normal signs. If it does appear, treatment with proven methods can be undertaken immediately with no further stress to the infected fish.

Both hyposalinity and copper have been PROVEN to be effective. That is, both have been demonstrated to actually kill "Ich" tomonts, and not just some tomonts, but ALL of them.

While it would be fantastic if ginger could be proved to be effective, until it is, it is no substitute for proven methods. And this is the crux of the issue.

 

[Chicago]

i regards t the above. yes copper and hyposalinity work. but do you think that in a large display tank where thera are no signs of ick that there is actually no ick.

i say this as i had a 200 gallon reef. for years no sign of ick. no fish additions ..no additions to the tank at all. then a water change 20% ..days later the tangs had ick. they faught it off and recovered without medication or treatments or additives.
they were healyth to begin with. in otherwords i think ick is always there just a question of how much it is able to reproduce?

thoughts comments?

by the way i am taking several off my fish out and putting them into an old 180 that i will do either as hypo salinity or copper quarintine.

any thoughts which is the route to go. i am thinking copper as this tank will never be reset up as a reef.

 

[Flipper1]

You cannot compare protein skimmers and calcium reactors to garlic and ginger. Foam washes up on the beach, corals need calcium to grow. Both of these devices are an attempt to mimic nature and a natural progression of the hobby.

However, since marine fish never come into contact with garlic and ginger and they appear to serve no nutritional value, I feel they have no place in an aquarium.

No offense, but following that logic, there are thousands of things that humans are not exposed to in nature; aspirin, prednisone, chemotherapy... Need I go on? Certain things, foreign to our bodies, have been proven to be beneficial, and even save lives. Is there truly a reason not to do the same in our reef tanks. I believe strongly in natural reef keeping, but ginger and garlic, I recall, are natural.

Aside from that, what works for somebody, works. I'm sure if it took used motor oil to save my fishes and corals, and not foul the tank, I might just be pouring in the 10W30!

 

[drue131]

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity

Just my two cents. Hyposalinity has always worked if the fish is strong enough to take it. but You can"t use it in your reef tank. and if you can't catch the fish to put it in another tank. it won't work. I had a problem with in my reef tank also and I put a crushed head of garlic in my tank. it made the house smell bad. I won't do that again. I rather lose 500 dollars worth of fish than have my family get mad and complain again. but I grind the center of garlic with water and mix it with the food if I see a few spots on any fish. I just mix garlic with there food. it seems to come back lightly. but I haven't lost any fish in that tank. and its been going on for months. I keep adding corals so I think you could import the ich in your tank by adding stuff that maybe there was a fish with ich in the water.

 

[TerryB]

Thank you ATJ for providing some sanity here. People will lose fish trying wildly unproven methods (ginger) when they would have survived had a proven method been used.
Ich is NOT always present in an aquarium and this can be backed up with scientific evidence. Hyposalinity has several advantages over copper and it is just as effective if not more so. Lets NOT confuse ginger with garlic. Garlic has shown a reasonable amount of success (not consistent though) while ginger has shown nothing at this point. As far as problems using it, who knowns what it does to the water. The American Pharaceutical Association Practical Guide to Natural Medicine "large quantities of ginger could depress the central nervous system and cause abnormal heart rhythms."
Terry B

 

[Flipper1]

Terry B, I understand your point completely, and agree that a proven method is probably the most level-headed approach in such situations. I respect your opinion (and everyone's opinion) on this board. My disagreement, though, is in discarding exploration in the name of something tried-and-true.

How do you suggest a method become proven, if not first tried. I'm not saying that ginger is a trustworthy cure or treatment for ich. But I'm certainly not saying that it isn't. In this hobby, unfortunately, anecdotal evidence tends to be the only 'proof' of success or failure for a long time before something reaches a lab. Since there is no 100% method of curing ich, some bold people will take risks in order to find something that is. That's what exploration is about.

I have been fortunate, in my relatively short time in this hobby, to have never had the parasite in my tank. My method, although still not 100%, is close observation, selective purchasing, and propper quarantine. But I admire those who are willing to go out on a limb to improve the hobby.

 

[Chicago]

anyone try chem marin or other products. what is the factor in these products. hot chillie peppers??ect??

 

[Chicago]

flipper1 your are one of the lucky ones if you have not had an experience with ick.. i have had tanks go for years and with no change in the system just a wqater change it appeared and then two weeks later gone by no means other than just normal feeding which at the time did not include the garlic ginger ect.

that is why i posted did anyone else feel that ick is most always present waiting to strike for lack of better words

 

[drue131]

I tried an RP that I think has pepper in it. but it was worthless. that doesn't mean you won't have success. but I vote that product as worthless. I think it was a kent product which I like a lot of there products.

 

[TerryB]

Flipper,
I stated early on in this thread that I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a problem with someone responsibly experimenting with an idea. This would not include risking the lives of an entire aquarium of fish. To be responsible one would start with risking just one fish. The problem here is that one person comes along and says something such as peanut butter cured their fish of ich and a bunch of people jump on the band wagon and start recommending peanut butter as a treatment. Over the years I have seen MANY scenarios such as this repeated with various so called ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œcures.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ There are always those that swear by it and then in time this ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œcureââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ fades away as people lose fish with it (can anyone say Sano?). In the meanwhile a lot of animals die needlessly. A lot of people are always ready to jump on anything that is easy to use as a cure for ich. All it takes is for one person to say that they did it. The truth of the matter is that ich sometimes goes away doing nothing. Does that prove we should do nothing for ich? Sometimes people are just confused by the parasites life cycle because it can fool them when the spots fall off (only to come back later). Sometimes it doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t show itself again until you add one more fish or something happens to stress the fish. Sometimes people just simply misdiagnose ich or think that ich is the only thing that can cause white spots.
With garlic (which is still questionable, but I find some value to it) it was previously known to kill some types of parasites in the digestive tract. I have seen no evidence to support the idea that ginger has any effect on them. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t see any basis for the hypothesis that ginger could cure ich. Why not use parsley, we have as much reason to use it to cure ich? You may not feel there is a 100% cure for ich but hyposalinity, when administered correctly, comes very close if not there.
I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think that you have been particularly lucky because your fish havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t had ich. I think you have been one of the smarter aquarists that understand the value of quarantine BEFORE you have had a major wipe out. Most people have to learn the hard way. Properly quarantining all fish PRIOR to adding them to the display tank will prevent the vast majority of ich outbreaks from ever happening in the first place. Too bad so many people think quarantine is optional. That kind of thinking probably kills more fish than anything else in our hobby.
I think all of us would be happy to see a consistently effective reef safe cure for ich, but so far it hasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t happened. If you feel the need to experiment with ginger then do so responsibly in a controlled environment.
Terry B

 

[Flipper1]

If you feel the need to experiment with ginger then do so responsibly in a controlled environment.
Terry B

Exactly. Please understand that I do not advocate jumping on the band wagon and trying the first (or everything) you read. The problem here is a catch 22. A user seemingly has results from a certain 'remedy' and uses this forum to share his experiences. That is, after all, one of the many purposes of such a board. I think the reponsibility really falls on the reader to scrutinize the information he reads. That may, unfortunately, not always be the case. Personally, I'm glad to have read the info on ginger. That's not to say that I will immediately or ever take stock in it, ubt it's certainly good, IMO, to know every angle that people have taken, and to hear varying opinions on the idea. I only wish I had two dozen tanks, and a lab to use them in. I don't think there is enough scientific data being generated for our hobby. Thanks!

 

[Rebels23]

I used the quarantine method (with hypo) for 4 weeks and no signs of ick in the main tank even under high stress. Unfortunatley I got a new fish and only quarantined for two weeks and now my main tank has ich.

Rebels23

 

[Chicago]

what was your parameters. salinity temp ect. thanks

 

[Rebels23]

I kept the temperature at 80 - 81. The PH was at 8.0 - 8.1 and the salinity was at 1.010

 

[TerryB]

Rebels23,
You might want to lower the specific gravity to 1.009 next time and don't use a swing arm type hydrometer. Use a LARGE glass hydrometer or refractometer and measure the salinity rather than the specific gravity and go for 14ppt. Check the salinity and pH daily and treat for a minimum of three weeks. If you move the fish for treatment then the display should remain without fish for 30 days.
Terry B

 

[Chicago]

can ick use a snail as a host ..??? if no why not????

 

[thrlride]

I don't believe ich can attach to inverts. As for a scientific reason, you are asking the wrong person.

 

[TerryB]

Host would not be the correct word as far as a snail or any other inverts goes. Inverts cannot become infected. Ich is an obligate parasite meaning it cannot complete its life cycle without a (host) fish. It does not feed on anything else. However, ich tomonts can attach to any hard surface including inverts, glass, rock, sand and equipment.
Terry B