Possible New Cure for Ick?

[adypeckitt]

i have also been following this thread from the beginning aswell, but when i say if theres any details on how it destroys ick, i dont mean how to use it practically in the tank, i mean what is in the garlic which actually prevents it, is it a chemical of some sort. and if so could the same chemical be in ginger, as they are both organic materials or do they somehow prevent it in very different ways, ifso, couldnt a mix of them both prove to be the most effective measure against ick, rather than one or the other? :bum:

 

[Aquaman]

Melev,

TerryB was very active many years ago, even before RC was around. He has done a great deal of research and studying in fish parasites and such. I believe he has even written a number of articles that have been published in various magazines. If you ask any member that has been here from the start, or was on Aqualink BBS before RC was around they will know his name and his knowledge base. When it comes to fish parasites, ICK especially I will take his word as fact and gold.

 

[john f]

Just to be clear:

Terry B did NOT say that garlic had been proven to cure cryptocaryon.
What he did say was there is proof that garlic can rid fish of some intestinal parasites.

I'm not sure if Terry has done any original research on the subject, but he has written articles in hobby magazines and understands the life cycle and treatment for cryptocaryon more than most.
His delivery can be slightly offputting, but judging by some of the responses here.......so can mine

John

 

[Thales]

The problem is not that people are trying to cure ich with ginger. The problem is that ginger is now spreading around the online reefing community as a cure for ich. Really. Already.

The ginger evidence is radically anecdotal, no one is debating that. However, stronger anecdotal evidence already exists for us to put forth the idea that waterchanges, new bulbs or any of the various Marc Weiss products also cure ich. People tend to dismiss dismiss these cures out of hand. Why these and not ginger?

This is the danger of anecdotal evidence, people believe what they want to believe, dismissing some ideas while accepting others, while the evidence for them is at least equal.

Anedotal evidence has its place, but it also very dangerous. Look at the sales of magnetic healing bands, ionic bracelets and electric fat burners.

 

[GSerg2]

One huge difference between garlic and ginger is that garlic is known to have antiparasitic, antiviral, anti-fungal and antibacterial activity. This has been established as scientific fact. This does not mean that garlic has been demonstrated to cure ich. As far as I know ginger has none of these.

I hestitated to jump because I don't want to become a target. But with a quick search on the Internet I did find this interesting bit of information about ginger on the website of the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I am still very skeptical about a ginger treatment for ich. But this is interesting at any rate. Here are two snippets and a link to the article.

<snip>
The active ingredients in ginger are thought to reside in its volatile oils, which comprise
approximately 1-3% of its weight10. The major active ingredients in ginger oil are the
sesquiterpenes: bisapolene, zingiberene, and zingiberol11,12. The concentrations of active
ingredients vary with growing conditions. Gingerââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s active ingredients have a variety of
physiologic effects. For example, the gingerols have analgesic, sedative, antipyretic and
antibacterial effects in vitro and in animals13,14.
<endsnip>

<snip>
Ginger: Potential Clinical Benefits
1. Cardiovascular: Cardiotonic, antilipemic
2. Pulmonary: none
3. Renal and electrolyte balance: none
4 Gastrointestinal/hepatic: Antinausea/antiemetic, carminative and antiulcer
5. Neuropsychiatric: See Immune modulation: anti-inflammatory for headache
6. Endocrine: Hypoglycemic
7. Hematologic: Antiplatelet
8. Rheumatologic: See Immune modulation: Anti-inflammatory for arthritis
9. Reproductive: none
10. Immune modulation: Anti-inflammatory for arthritis and headache
11. Antimicrobial: Antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal
12. Antineoplastic: Antineoplastic
13. Antioxidant: Antioxidant
14. Skin and mucus membranes: none
15. Other/miscellaneous: Warming/diaphoretic
<endsnip>

Full article
http://www.mcp.edu/herbal/ginger/ginger.pdf

 

[areefer]

cratylus

Any update on the PBT and your main tank?

 

[Denzo]

Areefer,
I am the one with the PBT with the small recurring outbreak of Ich.

Cratylus has the much wider outbreak in his tank.

-John Denzo

 

[ReeferAl]

If people continue to do Seat of the pants experments on their fish then this hobby is doomed! In order to test this hypothesis about the properties of ginger a proper lab test is going to be needed, this is not someting a average hobbiest has!

If we have to rely on "a proper lab test" of any new idea before considering changes to the way we do things, then this hobby is doomed!

Many of the things we now take for granted started out with anecdotal accounts which over time start to pile up and form strong evidence. Ideally at some point these ideas are then tested more rigorously, although this is a concept very new to the aquarium hobby.

I certainly would not criticize anyone for reporting "anecdotal" observations. OTOH, jumping "on the bandwagon" after 1 or a couple of "anecdotal" reports is also not something to be encouraged. Take the reports with skepticism, not ridicule. Eventually this may prove to be a passing fad or a great new treatment. Let's just be cautious while we wait and see.
Allen

 

[Aquaman]

ReeferAl, What I meant to say and did not write correctly is that If your going to test these things you need to understand the scientific method. You may not need a LAB but do need to understand what it is your actually testing for, understand the results, keep copious and detailed notes. This is what I meant by the average hobbiest not having.

Every person on this board could test the Ginger hypothisis, but since just about every tank on this board is configured, cared for, and run very differently the results would not mean that much. But, If one person or several were to setup say 10 tanks all alike, using the same type skimmer, procured their fish from the same location, specifically induced ICK and knows that the parasite induced is infact ICK and not some other parasite, then using a single tank as control test 3 tanks using ginger, 3 tanks using copper, 3 tanks using hyposalinity. then gather the results and publish the results to the public.

 

[Reef Madness]

This evidence will also be physical, IE: slides of various tissues infected with ick to see and count actual efficacy. Surely *noticing less specks* isn't an acceptable method.

This is like saying white bread causes drug addiction because all drug addicts have eaten white bread. More work must be done to make a connection if there is one. This would involve controls of the types mentioned previously.

I realize people stumble on things that lead to wonderful discoveries, but if we are going to start multi-gallon experiments with complex compounds, we owe it to those animals to do it right, and surely not promote this experimentation with others or even suggest it as a cure until such proof is acquired. Otherwise we are really running Drase tests with fish, corals and invertebrates instead of rabbits, with no known or measureable outcome. This is simply inhumane. Are any of you willing to live in a liquid concentration of various complexs and phenols of ginger, sans eye protection? Garlic? For nothing verifiable or measurable? And why should we or fish? We have known medications and methods to first avoid, and if necessary treat ick. Why don't we use what we know works?
How is pie in the sky better than anti-protozoan drugs and why do we keep looking for more pie when we have it already?

I have to say, if any one of us gets a flagellated protozoan (don't count yourself out unless you use protection...) you won't go to the Dr. and get a script for garlic or ginger--- boys and girls NO! He will write you a script for Flagyl.....metronidazole......and your partner too..... Now when it's your body (Huevos) on the line, what will it be? Just curious..... Are you going to trust your nuts to garlic or ginger? LOL!

Craig

 

[melev]

Garlic is known to be a medicinal herb for centuries, and has been used by one civilization after another.

I know that using Garlic Extract (a few drops) will clear up an ear ache, and ease an ear infection. It has also been used to clear up ear infections on rabbits (I've known people to use bacon grease as well).

If some have found ginger to work for <b>human</b> needs, great. I've got zero personal experience with that, and have done no research on it. I did do research for <b>human</b> use of garlic a few years ago, and was very impressed with what I read.

Only later in this hobby, and specifically online did I learn some people use garlic to ward off disease in their fish. And it seems to work wonders for some. Do I expect immediate success with it when I tried it? Nope. But I was hopeful.

I feel the exact same way with the possibility of ginger. You guys are clearly stating why we shouldn't just jump on the bandwagon and promote this as the wonder cure. AFAIK, no-one has!!!

Hopefully someone will decide to pursue this further, and follow a semblance of statistical data, slides, pictures, cell-disection....whatever it takes to prove it one way or another. Maybe Ron Shimek might tackle this one?

 

[Thales]

Garlic is known to be a medicinal herb for centuries, and has been used by one civilization after another.

Just because people use it as a medicinal herb doesn't mean it actually does anything.
An anology: my friend and I both had the same cold, as far as we could tell. On day three she goes to the acupuncturist and is better on day 5. I do nothing and am better on day 5. She swears the acupuncture made her better.

I know that using Garlic Extract (a few drops) will clear up an ear ache, and ease an ear infection. It has also been used to clear up ear infections on rabbits (I've known people to use bacon grease as well).

But an ear ache or ear infection will often clear up on its own after a few days, so there is no way to tell if the garlic actually does anything or if it simply makes people feel like they are doing something.

 

[melev]

Lefty, it warms up the ear, and cooks the bad stuff. And fools everyone into thinking you had pizza!

 

[AquAddiction]

If some have found ginger to work for <b>human</b> needs, great. I've got zero personal experience with that, and have done no research on it.

I do. When I was pregnant with my son, my doctor (a professional, in fact) suggested I try ginger (ginger-snap cookies, ginger ale, stir-fried, deep-fried :lol: etc.) to combat nausea and vomiting during my bout with morning sickness. It did wonders. Ask any mom and read any pregnancy book or website. It is a known fact...

 

[AquAddiction]

..and since it has been observed that ginger may contain anti-pathogenic properties in humans.. then why not work in fish?

Here's a "scientific" study done on ginger:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12630492&dopt=Abstract

Study Results indicated that extracts of ginger root and bitter kola may contain compounds with therapeutic activity. (Used to treat respiratory tract pathogens in humans).

Hey, why not give it a try. IMO, I'd rather use the ginger method if it means not having to stress my fish out more than nescessary (ie, trying to net it for QT or dips).

 

[TerryB]

GSerg2,
Thank you for your input and the reference that you provided. That is the sort of information that is helpful and it is noteworthy that NOTHING was said to indicate that ginger has any anti-parasitic action.
Although I am not an advocate of using garlic as a cure for ich (because there are much better treatments available), I do believe that it has some applications in fish health management. Garlic is known to have some anti-parasitic action so it is reasonable to hypothesize that it MAY work for something like a Cryptocaryon irritans infection in fish. It is also pretty easy to test the idea that garlic will kill some internal parasites in the digestive tract of fish. All you have to do is feed the fish a heavy dose of garlic for a few days and examine their droppings with a microscope for dead parasites. Dr. Colorni in Israel performed a study and found that garlic has some mild antibiotic action in fish. I should have been more specific and said that I am not aware of any studies that would indicate that ginger has any medicinal value in fish, while garlic does.
CJ posted a link to an article that was written about how garlic may help fish with ich. Horge did an excellent job with the manuscript, but he did NOT conclude that garlic is a cure for ich. He merely detailed (and quite well I might add) exactly how garlic MAY help fish with ich. Personally, I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t find it reliable enough for combating ich to recommend garlic when hyposalinity is so extremely effective. If my fish had a mild infection in a large reef tank then I probably would give it a brief try (this would never happen to me because I properly quarantine). During that time I would be fully prepared to implement hyposalinity therapy if I didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t see positive results with garlic.
I really donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have the time to test ginger in a clinical trial and I havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seen anything yet to indicate that it warrants a trial in the first place. Heck, tomatoes have a substance that repels mosquitoes; maybe we should be talking about it? Then again, if I did have the time then I would rather do it with garlic. Scientific trials require a great deal of money (usually in the form of a grant) or at least the financial support of people that would benefit monetarily. Most of the trials performed on fish use salmoniods and are supported by commercial fish enterprise such as fisheries. Fisheries donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a great need for another ich treatment, they can already use hyposalinity, so there is not a lot of incentive there. I have tried to encourage Dr. Edward Noga at North Carolina State University and Dr. Angelo Colorni at Israel Oceanographic & Limnological Research to look into garlic as a treatment for ich to no avail.
BTW, Ron Shimek usually refers fish disease questions back to the moderators in the disease forum here.
Terry B

 

[AquAddiction]

...that NOTHING was said to indicate that ginger has any anti-parasitic action.
B

Pls. see post above.

 

[TerryB]

AquAddiction,
Thanks for posting the link, but it talks about possible antibacterial action not anti-parasitic. Cyrptocaryon irritans is a parasite, although an advanced ich infection often leads to secondary bacterial infection.
Over the years I have seen literally dozens of treatments, chemicals, methods and products touted as cures for ich. All of these have proven to be unreliable at best. This should give you an idea of why I am skeptical. The only consistently reliable treatments are copper or hyposalinity.
BTW, it is a natural part of the life cycle of Cyrtocayon irritans to mature and fall off of the fish before it can reproduce. The fact that the spots fall off proves nothing because they do that when no attempt at treatment is made. The trick is interrupting the life cycle of the parasite before it can reproduce and attack again in greater numbers
Terry B

 

[Zoanthus]

I'm not sayin nothin

Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s safer!

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1379056#post1379056

I may try this ginger treatment next time around to see how it goes. I think the less stress to the fish during treatment is a good thing and hypo-salinity is very stressful and can kill the fish. Also keeping the fish happy and eating in the environment they are already in is a good thing. Removing the fish is not.

 

[Zoanthus]

Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m using Kent garlic xtreme now with coral vital to back it up and have had 100% success with itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s use also other people have tried this and it has worked for them.

I may try using ginger in place of garlic extreme it will be cheaper and is always available if it works as good as garlic extreme I will switch. Those little bottles cost ten dollars here. My fish are worth the expense if it donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work as fast I will switch back to using the Kent product.

Has it had any adverse effects on coral or the fish and how are they doing now?


Thank You.