Possible New Cure for Ick?
- Thread starter cratylus
- Start date
stlouisguy
Registered Member
ATJ
Premium Member
wmam said:
The biggest problem with studying something like this is ensuring that the results are both conclusive and unambiguous. The education level of the person doing the study makes little difference and what is important is the construction of the study.
The observations in this thread have been both useful and promising, and as the thread title states, ginger is a possible cure for "Ich". Unfortunately, the observations are neither conclusive nor unambiguous. Note that this is not at all a comment on the people that made the observations or their abilities, but more to do with the unanswered questions. Were the fish really infected with Cryptocaryon, or was it something that looks very much like it? Did the fish recover through acquired immunity and could they have recovered without any treatment? Does the amount of ginger provided matter and if so, how much is required? Does the preparation of ginger matter? There may be other questions that I can't think of at the moment.
Certainly, the more successes people have with this treatment, the more it suggests it is effective, however, how should failures be evaluated? Do they indicate that ginger is not effective? Was the ginger prepared incorrectly? Was insufficient ginger provided? Was a pair of maroon clowns present?
To make the results more conclusive and less ambiguous, the above questions need to be considered when devising a study. A study along the lines of what Steve mentioned would probably be the best, i.e. use a large number of fish and feed half with garlic/ginger and the other half not and then statistically compare the results. While that sounds simple enough, to ensure unambiguous results, you'd have to:
* show that both groups of fish were exposed to Cryptocaryon and only Cryptocaryon
* expose both groups of fish to the approximately the same number of Cryptocaryon theronts
* determine if the fish that recovered in either groups are still able to host trophonts
There may even be some value of splitting the fish into 4 groups, one without ginger treatment and the other three with varying quantities of garlic/ginger, or with garlic alone, ginger alone and both. The variations can be quite exhaustive.
I'm guessing this is not exactly what you had in mind, but unfortunately is the sort of depth that needed.
wmam
New member
ATJ Quote "Was a pair of maroon clowns present?"
ROFLMAO
Thats so funny.
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I guess if I did want to try something like this I would want to do it step by step on a thread dedicated just to that here on RC with the help of you and others.
Think that might be something we all could do together as a group?
ROFLMAO
Thats so funny.
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I guess if I did want to try something like this I would want to do it step by step on a thread dedicated just to that here on RC with the help of you and others.
Think that might be something we all could do together as a group?
Im not sure this is the case. The basic problem with the anecdotal evidence is that it is just that, its anecdotal.
The anecdotal evidence that garlic/ginger works is as valid as the anecdotal evidence that it does nothing.
The cause and effect are not necesarily related and whilst the ammateur might well discover something by accident missed by the experts, the discoveries that arise by accident still need to be tested one way or the other.
Fleming discovered pennicilin by accident, but we dont just grow it in a jar of jam for medicinal purposes, or at least we dont here. Further investigations and research has gone into the use of pennicilin.
If an effect is real then it should have some effect for all cases not just for a proportion. As far as I can tell at best the split is 50:50 for garlic/ginger cures. Personally this doesnt sound like the kind of success rate associated with something called a 'cure'.
The issue that I have with much of the advice given on fish boards (public forums generally) is that simply putting it on the web gives something credibility.
The person posting it may have no experience or background with the advice, formal or othwerwise, but once its on the web it becomes 'a fact'.
As far as I can tell the naysayers, I include myself here, have only been trying to point out the problems with anecdotal evidence and the lack of any kind of programmed study.
If it works then great, but at least draw conclusions based on some kind of logical investigation by and expert or ammetuer i dont care.
Glenn
GSerg2
New member
I am interested with the idea that cratylus had when he got his LFS to try ginger on new arrivals. It might be an inexpensive way to get more anecdotal evidence as to whether ginger is providing some health benefit to sick fish.
LFS's see lots of sick fish and they lose a fair amount of stock to illness (ich and otherwise). If enough of them came back with positive (or negative) results it might help start to tip the scales of opinion one way or the other. Does anyone else out there have a relationship with their LFS that would allow them to make this suggestion?
Greg
LFS's see lots of sick fish and they lose a fair amount of stock to illness (ich and otherwise). If enough of them came back with positive (or negative) results it might help start to tip the scales of opinion one way or the other. Does anyone else out there have a relationship with their LFS that would allow them to make this suggestion?
Greg
Greg
The study would prove useful if conducted in a systematic way and logical conclusions reached based on data collected.
Unfortunately to conduct this kind of study takes time, effort and ultimately money as well as a knowledge of how to conduct the study.
if the lfs can afford the 1st three and have the fourth then I applaud it and welcome their commitment.
GLenn
The study would prove useful if conducted in a systematic way and logical conclusions reached based on data collected.
Unfortunately to conduct this kind of study takes time, effort and ultimately money as well as a knowledge of how to conduct the study.
if the lfs can afford the 1st three and have the fourth then I applaud it and welcome their commitment.
GLenn
GSerg2
New member
Glenn,
Thanks for replying. But I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't suggesting that people ask their LFS's to set up a lab-type environment and collect data. I was thinking that since these stores see such a large number of sick fish compared to the average hobbiest, that their anecdotal evidence would be worth some weight in this conversation.
It would be interesting to know if a LFS sees a substaintial change in dozens of fish, instead of one or two fish like most people who have tried it, especially when they have a history of what type of mortality rate to expect from these fish. It would be especially interesting if several stores came back with similar results (positive, negative or neutral).
I think most people here would have a difficult time convincing their LFS to undertake the type of work needed for systematic studies under controlled conditions. I understand that because they are after all trying to run a business. I'm not trying to argue with your statements only trying to explain my previous post a bit better.
Greg
Thanks for replying. But I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't suggesting that people ask their LFS's to set up a lab-type environment and collect data. I was thinking that since these stores see such a large number of sick fish compared to the average hobbiest, that their anecdotal evidence would be worth some weight in this conversation.
It would be interesting to know if a LFS sees a substaintial change in dozens of fish, instead of one or two fish like most people who have tried it, especially when they have a history of what type of mortality rate to expect from these fish. It would be especially interesting if several stores came back with similar results (positive, negative or neutral).
I think most people here would have a difficult time convincing their LFS to undertake the type of work needed for systematic studies under controlled conditions. I understand that because they are after all trying to run a business. I'm not trying to argue with your statements only trying to explain my previous post a bit better.
Greg
Greg
I didnt miss your point, the problem is how do you decide if someones data is relevant or not?
I guess if the lfs decided to add ginger to all their qt tanks on receipt of new fish stocks and reported no loss or a signifcant drop in losses, say from 50% down to 10% or something similar then this might give a reason for hope over and extended period, say a year.
However, since the lfs doesnt know what dieseases the fish have on arrival we wont know if the fish arent dieing from ich or if they arent dieing from something else.
To be honest the diagnosis of ich as has been outlined by others is not simple, I am no expert on fish diseases, but it seems to me that maybe there are a number of diseases/parasites whith symptomatic white spots on the fish.
After all the occurence of white spots on reef tank inmates is not unusual, but quite clealry not all of the fish die or go on to develop signifcant infections. Many of us know of reports of fish which periodically get whitespots and fight the infection off and live happily.
On the other hand some people report one fish with white spots and then the whole tank is wiped out.
Some add garlic/ginger and others do nothing and all report similar levels of success in curing their bout of ich.
Without proper diagnosis most of us are simply guessing at the diagnosis since skin scrapes are needed i believe for definite diagnosis.
These are just some of the reasons why the reefers anecdotal evidence for and against is of little value.
Does a larger scale experiment with similar problems give us a better idea?
Bearing in mind for the experiemnt to be valid they would need to halt all other forms of validated treatment Im not so sure it would be of any benifit to the fish.
Trying not to be too negative but rather recognizing some of the problems with making a simple connection between a perceived cause and effect.
On a lighter note if we do take things at face value too often then we might believe that a magician can actually make the empire state building disappear or similar.
Glenn
I didnt miss your point, the problem is how do you decide if someones data is relevant or not?
I guess if the lfs decided to add ginger to all their qt tanks on receipt of new fish stocks and reported no loss or a signifcant drop in losses, say from 50% down to 10% or something similar then this might give a reason for hope over and extended period, say a year.
However, since the lfs doesnt know what dieseases the fish have on arrival we wont know if the fish arent dieing from ich or if they arent dieing from something else.
To be honest the diagnosis of ich as has been outlined by others is not simple, I am no expert on fish diseases, but it seems to me that maybe there are a number of diseases/parasites whith symptomatic white spots on the fish.
After all the occurence of white spots on reef tank inmates is not unusual, but quite clealry not all of the fish die or go on to develop signifcant infections. Many of us know of reports of fish which periodically get whitespots and fight the infection off and live happily.
On the other hand some people report one fish with white spots and then the whole tank is wiped out.
Some add garlic/ginger and others do nothing and all report similar levels of success in curing their bout of ich.
Without proper diagnosis most of us are simply guessing at the diagnosis since skin scrapes are needed i believe for definite diagnosis.
These are just some of the reasons why the reefers anecdotal evidence for and against is of little value.
Does a larger scale experiment with similar problems give us a better idea?
Bearing in mind for the experiemnt to be valid they would need to halt all other forms of validated treatment Im not so sure it would be of any benifit to the fish.
Trying not to be too negative but rather recognizing some of the problems with making a simple connection between a perceived cause and effect.
On a lighter note if we do take things at face value too often then we might believe that a magician can actually make the empire state building disappear or similar.
Glenn
GSerg2
New member
I agree totally. I think, as I stated above, at best it might indicate some health benefits to sick fish.
This is kind of what I was thinking might be helpful. Getting feedback like this, would be interesting since the scale would be much larger than the typical report of 'I treated my one or two fish and it or they got better' that we have seen so far.
Oh, just one other thing, surely you don't really think all (or even most) LFS use quarantine tanks for new fish. Well I don't know, maybe they do in other parts of the US or in the UK but I only know of one in the Tulsa area that does. The rest just dump them in and hope for the best. Then attempt to treat, usually a pretty sad attempt, to theat ones that come up sick. Sad I know, but true.
Good point about the magician. The opposite extreme can also true. If we only accepted an idea after it was proven to be valid through scientific testing in a lab, there would be no need for religion.
Good chatting and thanks for the feedback
Greg
Greg
I agree about lfs and qt tanks, i dopubt your lfs is a lot different to mine, only seperated by a few thousand miles of ocean and a language of course!!
I personally wouldnt want to stifle experimentation, its only the conclusions that we draw that i would be concerned about.
I think from the hobbyisits viewpoint our experiences are no less valid than anyone elses. The fact that in similar circustances we boith have contradictory experiences leads me to think life aint simple and for me this is the nub of the problem.
But i guess now we're in territory that we both kinda have our positions on this issue and its seems we can at least coexist peacefully.
Glenn
I agree about lfs and qt tanks, i dopubt your lfs is a lot different to mine, only seperated by a few thousand miles of ocean and a language of course!!
I personally wouldnt want to stifle experimentation, its only the conclusions that we draw that i would be concerned about.
I think from the hobbyisits viewpoint our experiences are no less valid than anyone elses. The fact that in similar circustances we boith have contradictory experiences leads me to think life aint simple and for me this is the nub of the problem.
But i guess now we're in territory that we both kinda have our positions on this issue and its seems we can at least coexist peacefully.
Glenn
Greg
I agree about lfs and qt tanks, i dopubt your lfs is a lot different to mine, only seperated by a few thousand miles of ocean and a language of course!!
I personally wouldnt want to stifle experimentation, its only the conclusions that we draw that i would be concerned about.
I think from the hobbyisits viewpoint our experiences are no less valid than anyone elses. The fact that in similar circustances we boith have contradictory experiences leads me to think life aint simple and for me this is the nub of the problem.
But i guess now we're in territory that we both kinda have our positions on this issue and its seems we can at least coexist peacefully.
Glenn
I agree about lfs and qt tanks, i dopubt your lfs is a lot different to mine, only seperated by a few thousand miles of ocean and a language of course!!
I personally wouldnt want to stifle experimentation, its only the conclusions that we draw that i would be concerned about.
I think from the hobbyisits viewpoint our experiences are no less valid than anyone elses. The fact that in similar circustances we boith have contradictory experiences leads me to think life aint simple and for me this is the nub of the problem.
But i guess now we're in territory that we both kinda have our positions on this issue and its seems we can at least coexist peacefully.
Glenn
all good at the moment
all good at the moment
after my last post i`ve found the caps lock and things are looking up last thursday i was called to a freinds house (who is away for 2 months by the way} by his wife who stated he had lost 2 fish
1 magestic angel and one pajama tang
his tank is a 400 gal reef tank with 150 gal sump
the problem 70% of his fish seemed to be infected with ick including 6 of his 9 purple tangs all fish were feeding but staying very close to the bottom of the tank and near to the rocks i didn`t
feel there was time on my side to drop the salinty without lose of more of his stock
after a long phone conversation i was alowed to drop the salinaty to 1020 and try ginger
the ginger was fresh ans was cut in 1 small slice per feed the choped as finley as it could be and left to soak in the feed overnight whilst the salinity was only droped to 1022 by the morning the food was added at lights on as usual all fish were healthy enough to eat but 30% showes signs of sheding there mucus membrane the fish was feed the same again 1hour before lights out as usual
it was noted that the fish would try the small pieces of ginger
but would regect it as food
these fish have now been on this diet for one week and and have all made a virtual recovery
all fish are now browsing the reef as before and the salinity has also been raised back to 1025
5-6 of he fish that were originaly inspected also had very cloudy eyes this also has completly cleared
i will continue to monitor the situation over the next 3 weeks and post any abnormalitys
the application of ginger has now been cut to 1 feed per day
nothing else has been added to the tank and form my own experiances i have found thet normaly if a fish has ick has cloudy eyes and sheds its mucus it is almost certainly gonna die with in 2-3 days
please don`t post back this is only what i have found and experianced and not a yes it works no it does`t post
also a big thanks to the orignal post for sharing this with us i feel it has worked for me
all good at the moment
after my last post i`ve found the caps lock and things are looking up last thursday i was called to a freinds house (who is away for 2 months by the way} by his wife who stated he had lost 2 fish
1 magestic angel and one pajama tang
his tank is a 400 gal reef tank with 150 gal sump
the problem 70% of his fish seemed to be infected with ick including 6 of his 9 purple tangs all fish were feeding but staying very close to the bottom of the tank and near to the rocks i didn`t
feel there was time on my side to drop the salinty without lose of more of his stock
after a long phone conversation i was alowed to drop the salinaty to 1020 and try ginger
the ginger was fresh ans was cut in 1 small slice per feed the choped as finley as it could be and left to soak in the feed overnight whilst the salinity was only droped to 1022 by the morning the food was added at lights on as usual all fish were healthy enough to eat but 30% showes signs of sheding there mucus membrane the fish was feed the same again 1hour before lights out as usual
it was noted that the fish would try the small pieces of ginger
but would regect it as food
these fish have now been on this diet for one week and and have all made a virtual recovery
all fish are now browsing the reef as before and the salinity has also been raised back to 1025
5-6 of he fish that were originaly inspected also had very cloudy eyes this also has completly cleared
i will continue to monitor the situation over the next 3 weeks and post any abnormalitys
the application of ginger has now been cut to 1 feed per day
nothing else has been added to the tank and form my own experiances i have found thet normaly if a fish has ick has cloudy eyes and sheds its mucus it is almost certainly gonna die with in 2-3 days
please don`t post back this is only what i have found and experianced and not a yes it works no it does`t post
also a big thanks to the orignal post for sharing this with us i feel it has worked for me
its now day 11 since i started to use ginger and ALL fish seem to have made a full recovery i am personaly amazed a how quick this has apparantly worked i am aware of the ick life cycle and by no means am i saying CURE but the evidence seams to favour this particular trial at the moment " baited breath"
the only draw back i can see at the moment is the sudden apperence of some red dinofallages but i am putting this down to uneaten particals of ginger
i stayed up till quite late just to make sure that the corals in the tank were not being affected but all had good polyp extentions
as of yet there seems to be no adverse affects in the tank to any of the live stock
i know its early days but i did stike me that should this be the type of cure that is safe does work and lets face it the hobby is screaming out for. it would be a shame to see some greedy company profit from
when some like cratylus has took the plunge and thrown caution to the wind because for some of us would use the raw product most are too lazy and pay whatever price for something probably called g juice or stop ick although this is a bit pie in the sky at the moment and very early days wasn`t all ideas and dicoverys
i have tried to pick my words carefuly so as not to cause offence or contreversy
a definate cure for ick may still be years away as with all parasitic lifeforms they can mutate look at the common cold
BUT as a cure for anything its nearly always a natural source that comes up trumps
fingers crossed
the only draw back i can see at the moment is the sudden apperence of some red dinofallages but i am putting this down to uneaten particals of ginger
i stayed up till quite late just to make sure that the corals in the tank were not being affected but all had good polyp extentions
as of yet there seems to be no adverse affects in the tank to any of the live stock
i know its early days but i did stike me that should this be the type of cure that is safe does work and lets face it the hobby is screaming out for. it would be a shame to see some greedy company profit from
when some like cratylus has took the plunge and thrown caution to the wind because for some of us would use the raw product most are too lazy and pay whatever price for something probably called g juice or stop ick although this is a bit pie in the sky at the moment and very early days wasn`t all ideas and dicoverys
i have tried to pick my words carefuly so as not to cause offence or contreversy
a definate cure for ick may still be years away as with all parasitic lifeforms they can mutate look at the common cold
BUT as a cure for anything its nearly always a natural source that comes up trumps
fingers crossed
wmam
New member
ROBERLEA,
Sounds good so far...........
The last bout I had with ick I lost 2 triggers, 1 blue spot angel, 2 clowns, 1 volitin lion and 1 naso tang. I tried to catch them to use copper in QT tank to no avail. I started using liquid garlic drops on the food. My kole tang almost died but I was able to get him when he was just laying on his side on the substrate and put him in the QT tank. I took him and gave him a fresh water bath and put him back in the QT tank and he still just laid there so I got him by hand and held him facing the water flow out of my maxi-jey 600 power head until he started feeling like he was going to swim on his own. I let him go and he went back to the bottom but this time he stayed up-right. After about 15 minutes he began to swim around a little. Now this has been about a month ago or so and I am happy to state that he is now back in the main tank and looks like nothing had ever happened to him. Also I have yet to see any signs of ick on any of the other fish since. Now does this mean they have all developed an emunity to ick or did the garlic drops help or cure or a combination of all? Who knows but I for one am happy to say that as it seems for now that the ick problem that I had seems to be held at bay for the moment.
If ick was to rear its ugly head again I will probally use not only the garlic drops but also try the ginger with it. I want to try and mask the pungent ginger some way and maybe the garlic will help in this somewhat.
Sounds good so far...........
The last bout I had with ick I lost 2 triggers, 1 blue spot angel, 2 clowns, 1 volitin lion and 1 naso tang. I tried to catch them to use copper in QT tank to no avail. I started using liquid garlic drops on the food. My kole tang almost died but I was able to get him when he was just laying on his side on the substrate and put him in the QT tank. I took him and gave him a fresh water bath and put him back in the QT tank and he still just laid there so I got him by hand and held him facing the water flow out of my maxi-jey 600 power head until he started feeling like he was going to swim on his own. I let him go and he went back to the bottom but this time he stayed up-right. After about 15 minutes he began to swim around a little. Now this has been about a month ago or so and I am happy to state that he is now back in the main tank and looks like nothing had ever happened to him. Also I have yet to see any signs of ick on any of the other fish since. Now does this mean they have all developed an emunity to ick or did the garlic drops help or cure or a combination of all? Who knows but I for one am happy to say that as it seems for now that the ick problem that I had seems to be held at bay for the moment.
If ick was to rear its ugly head again I will probally use not only the garlic drops but also try the ginger with it. I want to try and mask the pungent ginger some way and maybe the garlic will help in this somewhat.
reply
reply
theres nothing worse than standing by helpless while you watch your prised fish die anything that can help against this most dreaded of parasites is trully heaven sent
whilst no one person knows all the answers (except the cockey lfs)we all know one of those
we are all experts of our own tanks forums such as this can only widen peoples ideas and knowledge we can only to do the best by what we keep and try to keep what we have alive as long as possable
hands up time i was very sceptical when i first read this post
but i do always keep an open mind
i will stop using ginger when i feel the threat has passed
and only time will tell if there are any side effects
im always sorry hear when people lose fish in this way but (dont quote me ) but i belive the that this parasite paticully attacks the gills and by putting it in front of the powerhead it may well have flushed valuable oxygenated water through its gills
i find at times this hobby can be to contrversial this works that works
a very good lfs once told me keep it simple and it will work
afew bio balls bit live rock couple of pods and a good skimmer
works for me but theres alwaye someone that will argue that point
if after the thirty day cycle is up or even after 60 days and ick has not reapeared then in my own experiance it will be a cure to me and god forbid should i encounter ick again i will use the same treatment will it have the same effect ? hope so but i cant tell the future is radiology a cure for cancer anwer :
yes for those its worked for
no for those it hasn`t
any way on a lighter note
do you think that fish could get garlic breath
that could be a cool experiment
feed one fish garlic and see if all the others give a wide berth
reply
theres nothing worse than standing by helpless while you watch your prised fish die anything that can help against this most dreaded of parasites is trully heaven sent
whilst no one person knows all the answers (except the cockey lfs)we all know one of those
we are all experts of our own tanks forums such as this can only widen peoples ideas and knowledge we can only to do the best by what we keep and try to keep what we have alive as long as possable
hands up time i was very sceptical when i first read this post
but i do always keep an open mind
i will stop using ginger when i feel the threat has passed
and only time will tell if there are any side effects
im always sorry hear when people lose fish in this way but (dont quote me ) but i belive the that this parasite paticully attacks the gills and by putting it in front of the powerhead it may well have flushed valuable oxygenated water through its gills
i find at times this hobby can be to contrversial this works that works
a very good lfs once told me keep it simple and it will work
afew bio balls bit live rock couple of pods and a good skimmer
works for me but theres alwaye someone that will argue that point
if after the thirty day cycle is up or even after 60 days and ick has not reapeared then in my own experiance it will be a cure to me and god forbid should i encounter ick again i will use the same treatment will it have the same effect ? hope so but i cant tell the future is radiology a cure for cancer anwer :
yes for those its worked for
no for those it hasn`t
any way on a lighter note
do you think that fish could get garlic breath
that could be a cool experiment
feed one fish garlic and see if all the others give a wide berth
