Prep for future built-in tank

[Mark999]

I'm a newbie and apologize for posting before being able to do much research, but in the next day or two I need to give a contractor a plan to build a built-in cabinet to house a future through-the-wall tank. I want to make sure the cabinet will be large enough to accommodate equipment. The tank would be relatively flush to the wall on one side (may stick out 6"). The other side it would rest on a strong 18" deep cabinet with granite counter. I anticipate the tank to be approx 40-42" wide x 28" thick x 24-30" tall). It may start out fresh water but eventually we want salt.

My main question is whether a sump and whatever other equipment we need will fit under the tank in a 42" wide by 18" deep cabinet. I'll be sure to understand correct setup for a nice healthy environment before I actually attempt this journey! I'm pretty educated on the many components of a 3500 gallon koi pond (bottom drain, settlement tank, skimmer, pump, biological filtration, UV clarifier, air pump oxygenator"¦) so I kind of know what I'm getting into! I'm also curious how lighting would be managed and how to remove for tank cleaning. I hope to have a clean built in cabinet look on both sides.

I know I need:
-Top access on both sides (hopefully behind cabinet doors, with vents for forced air ventilation)
-A few GFI circuits
-I think I can a run cold water supply and a drain to the cabinetry.
-the granite counter would extend through the wall to support the tank and I realize I'll need holes for water circulation

I appreciate any insights you experienced folks might have. If any of you are in central NY (Binghamton/Utica/Syracuse area) I'd be thrilled to come and see your setup and help you clean your tank so I know what's practical for us to do!

 

[woodnaquanut]

Do you have a beta version of the plan to post here?

FYI, we usually dimension a tank as length x width x height. There is no thick except the glass/acrylic!

If you have cabinets on both sides of the wall, design the supports so a sump can be almost as wide as the stand. This way you get the biggest sump you can under the tank and possibly have access to the sump from both sides.

It's important that the supports be under the edges of the tank. The tank should not be inside the supports.

Water and drain plumbed to the stand would be nice but is not a requirement. It's not a huge tank so water changes can be easily done with hoses.

I almost forgot!

Welcome to RC!!

 

[Mark999]

Hi John"¦thanks so much for responding! I don't have a beta drawing yet but attached some pictures I found. I normally would do a lot of research and answer my own questions but am in a time crunch to design around a future tank.

Ok"¦so the sump needs to be as large as possible. That's great info! If it's nearly as wide as the tank and presumably as high and as big as possible, what other equipment space will I need? My space is limited to about the width of the tank and the tank may only be 2' or 2.5' above the floor! Can a sump include other components or will I need lots of extra room for pumps/filters and whatever? Can any equipment go overhead? Sorry for the elementary questions. I just ordered "œThe New Marine Aquarium" book by Michael Paletta. What I really need is to find some installations and see them first hand!

We had thought the cabinetry would be entirely on the living room side and a granite counter would extend thru the wall and into the foyer about 6" with a couple legs to support it there, and a frame around it. But it now seems that access from both sides would be ideal so some sort of cabinet doors, like the foyer side pic on the right, are in order. We hope for a built-in look like the pictures. I assume one GFI outlet above for lights and two more under for equipment, all on one 20amp circuit? Regarding an optional drain, I assume I would siphon off water changes unless it's common to have a small pump or if a sump bottom drains. Could a drain just be a 2" PVC pipe extending into the bottom cabinet to run a small hose into? Or maybe a very small basin like a mini sink?

I see the right picture has a grate for ventilation (a fan must be necessary inside). Otherwise I could run duct up to the attic and back to another room's ceiling with an inline exhaust fan? The fan could even be pulling from the attic.

Mark

 

[woodnaquanut]

Height of stand will impact possible skimmer selection. Most require 20-25 inches to fit.

I have one 20A circuit. Lights run to a power strip in the stand. With LED lights my high amp use is about 6. That's lights on all the way and heaters both on.

A typical sump for a tank that size would be a 40B. A 40B is 36" x 18" x 16" (LxWxH). If your cabinet can fit that you'd be OK. My tank (120G, 48 x24 x24) has a 40B sump and there is room for a GFO/carbon reactor in front of it and 2 one gallon dosing jugs to the side. With all that here is some more space not used yet!

Drains...
If it goes into the sewer it needs a trap to prevent sewer gas coming up and a vent so it will actually drain. The vent is to the outside, typically thru the roof.

I tee off the return pump to do water changes. Attaching a long hose and I can pump to several sinks in my house.

Sorry, I don't ventilate as the tank has no canopy and the back of the stand is open.

 

[Mark999]

John, thank you so much!

Are we masochistic to want cabinet doors over top on both sides? I'd make it one wide opening behind the 2 doors! I imagine they should be more than 2' tall to be able to reach in there and work.

To increase capacity it'd be nice to go with a 30" tall tank but we could regret that too....what do you think? At 40x24x24 I'm calculating 100 gallons and another 6" taller is 125 filled to the top and maybe would be better viewing.

Mark

 

[woodnaquanut]

You're welcome, Mark. Being new to aquariums and doing a two sides viewable tank in your foyer is a bold move! What part of the world are you in? You might want to check out the local fish clubs. Lots of good people in the clubs willing to lead a noob down the road to aquarium addiction!

Doors on both sides is good. How else would you clean the glass?

Tank height is a very personal choice. I have a hard time reaching the bottom of mine without getting wet to the arm pit! I really avoid placing corals near the bottom because of the depth (24"). I will admit deeper looks nice but there is no advantage for the fish or corals. Most fish that need a bigger tank, like tangs, really need more length than height. On the reef they are big swimmers. It's hard for them to 'stretch their fins' in a short length tank. BTW, 40" is considered short!

Revisiting stand height, if the tank is supposed to be viewed standing up, higher stands are best. That way you or your guests don't have to bend over to see the amazing beauty.

Before you commit to construction, do a mock up. Painter's tape - the blue stuff - can be used to give you an idea how high you want the tank. Simulate standing/sitting to view the tank and cleaning the glass. Anything you build that is a hassle to maintain will not get all the maintenance it needs. Not dissing you, it's just human nature.

 

[CuzzA]

All good info from John.

Can you fit a 48" wide tank? I ask because the standard 120 (48x24x24) is a great footprint for a reef tank. You could save some money by buying an Aqueon or Marineland tank (Marineland does 1/2 off sales throughout the year) and going with a non drilled tank and then drilling the side yourself for the overflow rather than ordering a custom tank.

I would run two 20 amp circuits for the tank, but would install GFCI breakers rather than receptacles. The enclosed space and saltwater would likely be pretty harsh on the outlets leading to premature failure. Also, the more outlets the better. You want power strips or Apex energy bars plugged directly into the outlets. Fortunately you'll have some time to research and figure the small details out.

If you can I would run an exhaust fan directly above the tank and out the roof or soffit. This will not only help to reduce heat build up, but also co2. New homes are so air tight the air becomes saturated with an abundance of co2 which can substantially lower your tanks ph.

As far as water and drains go, if you can have a cold water line and a drain plumbed directly into the stand that would be fantastic. My tank is hooked to an adjacent bathroom sink behind my tank and it makes maintenance a breeze. No hauling buckets!!! Water changes are almost automatic.

I also, recommend the stand to be 40" tall. This gives the average 5.5-6 foot person a great vantage point to view the tank. No one likes to bend down to see what's in the tank.

A illustration of this area would be of great value to us as we can offer more ideas to the setup. For example, where to put a mixing container.

I hope this helps.

 

[woodnaquanut]

Good suggestions, CuzzA.

 

[Mark999]

John and CuzzA"¦thanks for your input!

>> Being new to aquariums and doing a two sides viewable tank in your foyer is a bold move! What part of the world are you in?

John: we live in rural central NY. I'm working on finding some tanks to tour and see what crazy addiction I'm trying to get myself into. As if our koi pond weren't enough! You say a two side viewable tank is a bold move. Is it a wise one though?

CuzzA: I wish we could fit a 48" in. I attached a set of pictures of the site. The left pic is where most of the tank and cabinetry would go. You can see the yardstick. The distance between edge of switch plate and corner is 48" so I need to go a little smaller. Ceilings are standard 8'.

In the right picture (foyer) you can see the yardstick and we figure the tank would extend out maybe 6". Since I've learned on this forum that we need access on this side as well (plus good support) we could look at 6-8" of cabinetry access built around the tank here. I would move the switches and thermostat. Below this furnace room isn't far off so have pretty easy access to utilities down one joist bay.

We have our own well water. Hopefully just a cold water supply would be enough. If the water runs very long in winter it comes out in the mid 50's so I'd have to be careful about that.

So guys"¦without wasting too much of your time because I haven't done my research yet"¦generally, if I fit in an adequate sump (which apparently incorporates mechanical and biological filtration?), how much other equipment room will I need? Heater? Cooler? Filtration? Pump? Logically if people put a tank on a stand then all life support equipment must fit under the footprint of the tank so I guess I've answered my question.

I'm curious about custom tank size cost, and whether to consider a bow front for the foyer side.

So many questions....please someone talk me out of this before it's too late!

 

[Indymann99]

Mark, all good suggestions above.

As long as you are planning out the tank I would see if you can incorporate a mix tank somewhere and hard plumb for water changes.

You also need to do some research on RODI systems, as you are going to need RODI to make SW and top off.

Some pictures of my setup that may help you with ideas.

Basement inwall - my space is different but might give you some cabinet ideas.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Tankframing.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Basement52009.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/TankCabclosed.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/TankCabOpen.jpg

Sump, my "stand" is at 36", I would have gone higher but I needed to balance the look bottom to top (36" - 24" - 36") I would NOT go any lower than 36".
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Sump12132009.jpg

fish room (this is small area under stairs for RODI system, Mix tank (Brute) and a QT
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/QTTank.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/IMG_1441_zps5224a528.jpg

Hard plumbed lines for WC (drain and refill) Mix tank to Sump.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Indymann99BWCsystemjpg.jpg

 

[woodnaquanut]

A wise move? Only you can answer that! I'm sure if you take your time, learn and ask questions, are willing to live with and power thru failures (it happens to all of us), the tank will be beautiful. They are such unique environments and have the potential for life long learning.

Well water? That raises a red flag for me. Do you have it tested? Some wells are horrible for aquariums. If you start with fresh water tank, choose fish that match your water params. It's so much easier than trying to match the water to the fish. If you do SW, especially reef, you'll want to learn about RO/DI filtration. This is another reason to connect with your local fish keepers. They will have suggestions that pertain to your local situation.

Do you have a basement? It's possible to move all the sump stuff to the basement and not have any concerns about fitting it all under the tank.

Too bad you can't fit a standard tank there. Custom are at least 20% more than 'off the rack'. Good luck with custom bow front! $$

Talk you out of it? Do realize you've come to the WRONG place for that? :lol2:

 

[Mark999]

Indyman99...Awesome! I really appreciate you putting up links to those pictures. Beautiful tank and woodwork to present it. I have a small furnace room downstairs, offset from the tank location by probably 10 or 15' via a floor joist "bay". So I think in addition to a drain line and a cold water supply run from there, some other equipment could be coordinated from there. But hopefully it wouldn't be too inconvenient to use so remotely.

Woodnaquanut....you and Indyman99 say filter the well water....OK! I have not tested it but I do know the pH is 6.5 out of the tap. Looks like the RODI and sump could be in the basement if necessary. Am I a noob or what: mixing salt water for changes...didn't consider that! Have another beer Mark! That should be at the tank right? Otherwise why would I run water there (well, for a freshwater tank it'd be nice)? A quarantine tank should be close too, not buried in the dark basement.

Inching closer....

 

[Indymann99]

Mark, QT in the basement is GOOD... the new fish need a quiet dark place to acclimate. I do have a small nightlight to help them see as my mechanical room is VERY dark.



Mark, you should be able to put your sump in the basement and that will be good for many reasons.
1. Easy maintenance - put the sump on a table that is at normal height = no bending over for sump cleanings.
2. plenty of height for skimmers
3. Easy Water changes (WC) from the mix tank to the sump.
4. Your RODI system (your going to get one right ;-) ) will be close to provide top off water (hint READ up on ATO)

5. you can drain water out of the sump for WC (i.e. remove 15g of water for WC), you CAN send this water into the basement sump pit (I have been doing this for 10yrs with no ill affects to the basement sump pump)

Don't start building till you plan all this out. Give this msg board a week or so to help you out.

 

[CuzzA]

Mark, whether indyman likes it or not I would latch on to him for advice. The atheistic look of his setup was inspiration to my setup and he doesn't even know it until now. Living in Florida we have no basements so his experience will no doubt go a long way and I would heed his advice.

 

[Mark999]

Ha...got ya (wink wink). He'll block me by the time I'm done with him (and you and woodnaquanut)!

Now that I know the majority of bulky equipment can and should be located in the furnace room, I could actually think about starting the cabinetry design and arranging for it to be built fairly soon right? If both walls were finished something like IndyMann’s (attached) and the floor of the cabinet was just the plywood subfloor, I could run plumbing and power lines up from the basement in a few months after I’ve learned what the heck I’m doing.

The difference in design for me will probably be that the tank will be on a counter and visible from the side’s except where it passes through the wall. The reason is that there’ll be a “matching” counter/book case on the other side of the doorway.

We plan on replacing the “plastic” simulated wood floor with a real wood floor. I realize this is not desirable around an aquarium. But with all the equipment downstairs I should be ok right? Especially if we do most of the work from the tiled foyer side.

IndyMann: Your cabinet has a thick wood strip above the tank below the cabinet doors. It looks like it could be tough to get your arm way down into the tank. Would I be wise to make those doors down close to the tank ?

 

[Indymann99]

Mark, sorry I dont have more time to make better drawings.... Travel baseball...

I think I understand the look you are going for.

I do have 1 concern that needs to be addressed. You really should support the tank FULLY at all sides. I think you are thinking of setting the tank on the counter and having it cantilever out over both sides... I would not recommend this. See GREEN in side view below.

Also I would do a SIDE overflow and have it bottom drilled for Herbie or Bean drain system (read up on this if you dont know what those are) lots to be found with Search function.

Your cabinet guy will help you with a "header" that may be needed above (YELLOW).

I would set the tank no lower than 36"

You will need a step stool to clean and reach the very bottom of the tank.

Hope this helps

Front view (reverse for other room)



Side view

 

[CuzzA]

Just to add on to what Indy said. I would run your return opposite of the overflow. Perhaps split it so you have two outlets and keep it high on the surface. This will help to push all of the surface scum to the weir and thus leave you with a clean clear surface for better light penetration.

Use wave makers for flow. But keep in mind you're going to need access to the back side of the glass opposite of the overflow box for your wave makers. You can attach a wave maker inside the overflow box so no need to worry about access there.

Also, I would set up a bean drain. Check out the "silent and fail safe" thread in the DIY forum.

 

[Mark999]

IndyMann, thank you for the drawings. They're exactly what I have in mind. Fully supported countertop on cabinets on both sides of the wall. And thanks to you and CuzzA for more info for me to research.

My first step should be to get the actual tank. I'll need to research the bottom holes...how many, what size, and exact location. Since this will be a custom size, can anyone recommend a supplier who would make one economically? Instead of shipping I figure I may have to travel to a city to get it. Assuming 42x24x30 any guesses on what it will cost? Are there any disadvantages to a bow front on one side, assuming it's affordable? It may lend a nice look on the foyer side. I assume glass thickness and type are standard and that there aren't any special construction features I need to consider.

 

[CuzzA]

I ordered a 96x30x24 from this company.

http://customaquariums.com/s-4-all-aquarium-standard-sizes.aspx

I'm expecting delivery any day now so I can't give a review yet. But I suggest using low iron glass (starphire, ultra clear or whatever anyone wants to call it) from whoever you choose. From this company I would expect you'll be around $800 including shipping.

Other highly reviewed and popular companies are A.G.E., Coast to Coast, Miracles and Reef Savvy. Some companies like A.G.E. require you go through a local fish store to buy the tank. From these companies you're probably looking at around $1,200-$1,500.

 

[Mark999]

Wow...more than I anticipated. I assume bow fronts would substantially increase cost. Do you have any opinions on bow fronts?