Probiotics for NPS tanks - Vodka, Prodibio, Zeovit etc.
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Whalehead9
New member
mesocosm, I agree with all that you said. I just want to state that Chuck method involves a separate chamber with air bubbling into it that the phyto and rotifers are placed where they are refilled every twelve hours. This is not necessarily a sterile environment. There has to be film associated with that kind of feeding. Is that good or bad? This is the question.
Most prepared long term phyto mixes don't do much but add PO4 and NO3. But Stuff that can go bad over time work better. I wonder if the preservatives added to the ineffective coral foods is their downfall. DT and Reed have a shelf life and do go bad which suggests that Biofilms do occur. It could be inferred that the syringe pump might not be an ideal feeding instrument, because it cannot form the same density of biofilms. Now in time the introduced food will accumulate the biofilms as free floating bacteria begin to break the cells down, but there would be lag time before that happens. It could possibly keep the tank cleaner and that could be a major factor.
Maybe this is a moot point, but maybe all roads do lead to Rome and I am just running in circles.
I am trying to figure out why chucks system is the magic tank. I feel like Spike Lee yelling "Its gotta Be the FOOD. Money money money."(It's an old Nike Commercial) Somehow I am not satisfied with the answer just do what I do I want to know why it works.
Most prepared long term phyto mixes don't do much but add PO4 and NO3. But Stuff that can go bad over time work better. I wonder if the preservatives added to the ineffective coral foods is their downfall. DT and Reed have a shelf life and do go bad which suggests that Biofilms do occur. It could be inferred that the syringe pump might not be an ideal feeding instrument, because it cannot form the same density of biofilms. Now in time the introduced food will accumulate the biofilms as free floating bacteria begin to break the cells down, but there would be lag time before that happens. It could possibly keep the tank cleaner and that could be a major factor.
Maybe this is a moot point, but maybe all roads do lead to Rome and I am just running in circles.
I am trying to figure out why chucks system is the magic tank. I feel like Spike Lee yelling "Its gotta Be the FOOD. Money money money."(It's an old Nike Commercial) Somehow I am not satisfied with the answer just do what I do I want to know why it works.
Now I'm confused, I thought Chuck used the syringe pump?
At any rate in that method, are they just mixed together, diluted with something, or bubbled in their own seperate container?
I'm just trying to figure out what this method entails so I can duplicate it here and see what our scientists can find out about it
I'd love to see some pics of the feed thru out the 12 hour period.The media in RF is just alginate and seawater really. There's A couple acids (citric, ascorbic, sorbic & proprionic) in it. The alginate is what I keep saying is a great bacterial food source. Likewise with glycerine based products, like Brine Shrimp Direct or liquid Life products.
Whalehead9
New member
The quote from this months article written by Charles Matthews states: "Chuck Stottlemire feeds 100 mls of a commercial algae concentrate (Reed Mariculture's Shellfish Diet) and 40 mls of concentrated rotifers ("RotiFeast") via continuous infusion (half of each is diluted in two gallons and administered q 12 hours via drip by peristaltic pump and airline agitation in the container, no cooling mechanism used) in a 180-gallon reef tank (which overflows to a total system volume ~500 gallons for dilution)."
Charles Matthews has been talking about the syringe pump, because it works easier.
Charles Matthews has been talking about the syringe pump, because it works easier.
airinhere
New member
So would it be safe to say that nps corals might be using bacterial actions instead of photosynthetic actions to gather their needed nutrition?
SPS corals use the waste products of photosynthesis for growth and the lowered ph enviroment the photosynthesis creates provides an enviroment where calcium carbonate is able to be used to create new skeletal structure.
Is there any similar type of internal mechanism that nps corals have to break down their food source to be used to grow? If its not internal (symbiotic or part of the coral itself) then perhaps the bacteria is providing that activity for the coral.
It seems we are trying to figure out what foods to directly feed the corals but might need to address digestion and utilization of those foods more directly.
Just trying to think outside the box.
SPS corals use the waste products of photosynthesis for growth and the lowered ph enviroment the photosynthesis creates provides an enviroment where calcium carbonate is able to be used to create new skeletal structure.
Is there any similar type of internal mechanism that nps corals have to break down their food source to be used to grow? If its not internal (symbiotic or part of the coral itself) then perhaps the bacteria is providing that activity for the coral.
It seems we are trying to figure out what foods to directly feed the corals but might need to address digestion and utilization of those foods more directly.
Just trying to think outside the box.
Diluted with 2 gallons of tank water, is that drawn straight from the tank? Meaning, full of tank bacteria at reef temp?
You know I've read the article a few times, I don't know why I keep missing that. I guess it's due to me getting stuck on how Roti-Feast is spelled :lol:
charles matthews
New member
Charles Matthews here.
I agree with kolognekoral and others that Dendros don't seem to take bacteria. Fabricius commented on this by gut analysis (she noted no prokaryotes, even though they were an order of magnitude more common). Also, lots of evidence that bacterial levels per se are elevated in our marine systems (Harker, Tyree, others). I don't think they take bacteria. And it's clear that refugiums by themselves have failed to be effective; it's the end of the deep sand bed era, in one sense- or at least the edge of its effectiveness. I've come to believe that a sand bed can in some ways be competitive with some of these organisms by advecting particles. I've not been impressed with the results of stirring- and Lord knows, I've done it so many ways...
On the other hand, Dendros do seem to respond to wiping the film off the side of the glass. Delbeek remarked on this too. Chuck has said to me that he uses vodka to stimulate copepod production. Increases of vodka do produce increases of the "white slime" bacteriofilms and their associated micrograzers and algal films. I would also point out that pushing vodka,to culture an algal film, along with iodine and silicate, are ways one could experiment with aquaculture of these organisms. Whether it can take the place of direct feeding is unknown to me. I currently have an unfiltered 55 gallon bare bottom tank with a flourescent strip light running continuously as an experiment to see if I can keep some clones just by wiping the glass on an unfiltered tank with no sand bed. In some ways, this setup is like some of Steve Tyree's sponge tanks; however, he didn't follow nutrient levels. (He tried Dendronephthya and failed). It will be interesting to train an algal film on the sides of the tank and scrup this into the water and see how we do, keeping detectable nutient levels of silica, nitrate, and (low but detectable) phosphate. I also now am working on an algal film reactor with beads in my 500 gallon system.
One interesting observation that Chuck and I have both made- feeding in this manner seems to strongly prevent algae in the tank, in spite of fairly good lighting in my system (4 T5 lamps over a 120 gallon). With nitrate15 and phosphate 2ppm now, there is absolutely no detectable algae. The algal/bacteriofilm (fed by vodka, silica, iodine) sloughs easily, and possibly outcompete nuisance algae forms. There are probably strong micrograzer populations too. But for whatever reason, these heavily fed systems are curiously "algae proof".
As Chuck has said, the continuous feeding with that mixture is probably what's really different here. I'd like to see more folks set up a small system plumbed into their reefs for experimenting with these organisms. The syringe pump (syringepump.com, $275) has been a Godsend to me for convenience of continuous feeding. I have failed in so many other previous attempts that it is not funny.
Chuck pointed out to me that we are still missing something since sexual reproduction has not been observed. I propose that the first one to document this on film inherit the title of "Dark Lord" from Chuck- unless of course Chuck gets there first.
Thanks everybody for your work. I certainly am excited to participate in this group. No question, this is where the fun is happening!
I agree with kolognekoral and others that Dendros don't seem to take bacteria. Fabricius commented on this by gut analysis (she noted no prokaryotes, even though they were an order of magnitude more common). Also, lots of evidence that bacterial levels per se are elevated in our marine systems (Harker, Tyree, others). I don't think they take bacteria. And it's clear that refugiums by themselves have failed to be effective; it's the end of the deep sand bed era, in one sense- or at least the edge of its effectiveness. I've come to believe that a sand bed can in some ways be competitive with some of these organisms by advecting particles. I've not been impressed with the results of stirring- and Lord knows, I've done it so many ways...
On the other hand, Dendros do seem to respond to wiping the film off the side of the glass. Delbeek remarked on this too. Chuck has said to me that he uses vodka to stimulate copepod production. Increases of vodka do produce increases of the "white slime" bacteriofilms and their associated micrograzers and algal films. I would also point out that pushing vodka,to culture an algal film, along with iodine and silicate, are ways one could experiment with aquaculture of these organisms. Whether it can take the place of direct feeding is unknown to me. I currently have an unfiltered 55 gallon bare bottom tank with a flourescent strip light running continuously as an experiment to see if I can keep some clones just by wiping the glass on an unfiltered tank with no sand bed. In some ways, this setup is like some of Steve Tyree's sponge tanks; however, he didn't follow nutrient levels. (He tried Dendronephthya and failed). It will be interesting to train an algal film on the sides of the tank and scrup this into the water and see how we do, keeping detectable nutient levels of silica, nitrate, and (low but detectable) phosphate. I also now am working on an algal film reactor with beads in my 500 gallon system.
One interesting observation that Chuck and I have both made- feeding in this manner seems to strongly prevent algae in the tank, in spite of fairly good lighting in my system (4 T5 lamps over a 120 gallon). With nitrate15 and phosphate 2ppm now, there is absolutely no detectable algae. The algal/bacteriofilm (fed by vodka, silica, iodine) sloughs easily, and possibly outcompete nuisance algae forms. There are probably strong micrograzer populations too. But for whatever reason, these heavily fed systems are curiously "algae proof".
As Chuck has said, the continuous feeding with that mixture is probably what's really different here. I'd like to see more folks set up a small system plumbed into their reefs for experimenting with these organisms. The syringe pump (syringepump.com, $275) has been a Godsend to me for convenience of continuous feeding. I have failed in so many other previous attempts that it is not funny.
Chuck pointed out to me that we are still missing something since sexual reproduction has not been observed. I propose that the first one to document this on film inherit the title of "Dark Lord" from Chuck- unless of course Chuck gets there first.
Thanks everybody for your work. I certainly am excited to participate in this group. No question, this is where the fun is happening!
Whalehead9
New member
"Increases of vodka do produce increases of the "white slime" bacteriofilms and their associated micrograzers and algal films. "
This reminds me of another thread that I have been following. People useing vitamin C to help their zoos. They better growth of algae covering the walls, while all of their nuisance algae slowly died off. I Think that the Vitamin C breaks down after a time and turns into a carbon source that bacteria can eat. they all say that their skimmers work much better than before. I don't know I'm just trying to pull common threads together to see what happens.
This reminds me of another thread that I have been following. People useing vitamin C to help their zoos. They better growth of algae covering the walls, while all of their nuisance algae slowly died off. I Think that the Vitamin C breaks down after a time and turns into a carbon source that bacteria can eat. they all say that their skimmers work much better than before. I don't know I'm just trying to pull common threads together to see what happens.
Whalehead9
New member
" I agree with kolognekoral and others that Dendros don't seem to take bacteria."
Charles, if chuck's tank was nothing but Dendro's then I would agree and the discussion would end, but Chuck's tank is not just dendro's. In fact it is everything that for years we have been told not to buy because it will die. Sponges, Gorgs, sun corals, sea apples, tunicates, fan worms, and Croinoids are all in this tank. I think that we have assumed that the Dendros are all that have become all important, but what about everything else! I mean he has a feather star!(My holy grail, One dendro would be cool, but not as cool as a feather star) Does nothing else eat bacteria? Does everything just eat phyto and rotiifers? Charles are you having the same diversity explosion that Chuck is having? Because that is the NPS tank that I want to achieve.
Charles, if chuck's tank was nothing but Dendro's then I would agree and the discussion would end, but Chuck's tank is not just dendro's. In fact it is everything that for years we have been told not to buy because it will die. Sponges, Gorgs, sun corals, sea apples, tunicates, fan worms, and Croinoids are all in this tank. I think that we have assumed that the Dendros are all that have become all important, but what about everything else! I mean he has a feather star!(My holy grail, One dendro would be cool, but not as cool as a feather star) Does nothing else eat bacteria? Does everything just eat phyto and rotiifers? Charles are you having the same diversity explosion that Chuck is having? Because that is the NPS tank that I want to achieve.
Kolognekoral
New member
To say that phyto is the answer was not the question. (does that make sense?) The fact that Dendronephthya require phyto does not preclude other organisms. My feather star certainly responded to zooplankton and bacteria (can't be really sure with the bac). Scleronephthya seem to be omnivorous while most gorgonians zooplankton takers. A mixed aquarium will require a mixed feed. (or did I misunderstand your understanding?)
Reeds shellfish is mainly phyto, as it is composed of different strains of micro algae. Rotifers are zooplankton, which makes the mix logical to me.
On the subject of Crinoids, the green-white striped Dichrometra species are relatively easy to keep. I had one for over 8 months, befor I accidentally damaged it with a siphon :sad1: , but they are maintainable. The finer red species seem to require a different food. Possibly they are dependant on bacteria?
Reeds shellfish is mainly phyto, as it is composed of different strains of micro algae. Rotifers are zooplankton, which makes the mix logical to me.
On the subject of Crinoids, the green-white striped Dichrometra species are relatively easy to keep. I had one for over 8 months, befor I accidentally damaged it with a siphon :sad1: , but they are maintainable. The finer red species seem to require a different food. Possibly they are dependant on bacteria?
Whalehead9
New member
I don't want to sound like bad guy, this is not meant to be a flame war at all and if anybody reads that into this, just know that I have the flu and sit at home and scour reef central in a fever pitched haze for the last three days. All I want to say is that Chuck did the impossible. Not just dendros, but all NPS everything. Its amazing. Absolutely amazing. I'm envious as hell. I want it. But before I put all my effort into it I want to understand it better.
I know that the phyto and the rotifers are the main food sources, bu the beginning of this thread was about Probiotics and the effects of new and various strain of bacteria that can produce a healthy NPS system. Whether vodka dosing creates enough bacteria for smaller pods and other thign to grow that indirectly feed the corals. If phyto and rotifers stewing in a bubbly salt water mix gets inoculated with other microorganisms that the corals and inverts take up. I will concede the Dendro point, but a diversity of microflora and microfauna has to be developed by this kind of husbandry, to develop the kind of larger organisms displayed in this tank.
I know that the phyto and the rotifers are the main food sources, bu the beginning of this thread was about Probiotics and the effects of new and various strain of bacteria that can produce a healthy NPS system. Whether vodka dosing creates enough bacteria for smaller pods and other thign to grow that indirectly feed the corals. If phyto and rotifers stewing in a bubbly salt water mix gets inoculated with other microorganisms that the corals and inverts take up. I will concede the Dendro point, but a diversity of microflora and microfauna has to be developed by this kind of husbandry, to develop the kind of larger organisms displayed in this tank.
Kolognekoral
New member
Sorry to hear about the flu! i had it a few weeks ago and I was miserable. Anyway, no flame intended or taken.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the carbon dosing method. It is not going to provide enough bacteria in most cases. It is geared to control of ammonia-nitrates and phosphates. The fact that it produces a bacterial film is more of a plus factor, not a main factor. That said, I am sure it could be tweeked to a level whereby it does provide an adequate amount of bacteria to feed a small number of bacteriovores. Although it is not stated in the article directly, I took it as simply a booster effect that made the general system more effective and productive. Maybe I've assumed something, here. Maybe part to will ellucidate the theme.
I remain open on the question of what food and in what quantites we require for NPC systems. In the end, each aquarium will have certain focuses of animals which will dictate the nutrition. As I am currently focusing on Scleronephthya and gorgonians with a few Tubastrea, I think I will need to come up with a consistent and balanced diet. The bacteria and bio-film are not really a major component of my planned dietary regiem. They are the frosting, so to say.
Rest and drink lots of fluids.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the carbon dosing method. It is not going to provide enough bacteria in most cases. It is geared to control of ammonia-nitrates and phosphates. The fact that it produces a bacterial film is more of a plus factor, not a main factor. That said, I am sure it could be tweeked to a level whereby it does provide an adequate amount of bacteria to feed a small number of bacteriovores. Although it is not stated in the article directly, I took it as simply a booster effect that made the general system more effective and productive. Maybe I've assumed something, here. Maybe part to will ellucidate the theme.
I remain open on the question of what food and in what quantites we require for NPC systems. In the end, each aquarium will have certain focuses of animals which will dictate the nutrition. As I am currently focusing on Scleronephthya and gorgonians with a few Tubastrea, I think I will need to come up with a consistent and balanced diet. The bacteria and bio-film are not really a major component of my planned dietary regiem. They are the frosting, so to say.
Rest and drink lots of fluids.
Kreeger1
KING LEAR
When feeding the tanks as we do, were also feeding tons of little living pods, mysis shrimp, cope pods ect in the tank that live and breed in the aquarium. I know first hand that chuck's tank is packed with life. All kinds of things going in and out of rocks, swimming in the water and everything inbetween. I'd bet a good portion of food intake by his corals comes from the breeding of these pods in his tank. Not sure how much, but you've got to figure a tank teaming with live has to feed the non photo stuff he's keeping. Sort of the food we feed the tank feeds the creatures in the tank which then feeds the corals we keep....to some extent
Erik
Erik
Stottlemire
New member
First Whalehead9,
If crinoids are what you want to keep. I have kept them for quite a while, but until this article came to light know one realy noticed. Crinoids like to be feed phyto, and one day old baby brine shrimp. My oldest crinoid is 3 years old. I have 7 crinoids now. My oldest basketstar is 4 years old. I have 5 of these.
It was my crinoids that I kept that got me thinking of taking on this tank. 2 years I collected different papers on attemps to keep these animals before I tried. The system that I set up was part of a 6 year old acro system. I added the 180 gallon tank, I then took down the 120 gallon acro tank. my 180 ran for over a month in line with my astablished system. Like you guys when I started I thought bacteria was a good food, so I started adding vodka from the begining before any animals were added. I now realize that its not as much bateria, But the out of control zoo population that comes from the affects of the vodka. Plus the crazy amount of Reed Mariculture food I feed.
I hope this makes sense
Chuck
If crinoids are what you want to keep. I have kept them for quite a while, but until this article came to light know one realy noticed. Crinoids like to be feed phyto, and one day old baby brine shrimp. My oldest crinoid is 3 years old. I have 7 crinoids now. My oldest basketstar is 4 years old. I have 5 of these.
It was my crinoids that I kept that got me thinking of taking on this tank. 2 years I collected different papers on attemps to keep these animals before I tried. The system that I set up was part of a 6 year old acro system. I added the 180 gallon tank, I then took down the 120 gallon acro tank. my 180 ran for over a month in line with my astablished system. Like you guys when I started I thought bacteria was a good food, so I started adding vodka from the begining before any animals were added. I now realize that its not as much bateria, But the out of control zoo population that comes from the affects of the vodka. Plus the crazy amount of Reed Mariculture food I feed.
I hope this makes sense
Chuck
beez
Premium Member
NPS newbie question
NPS newbie question
Hi guys,
I'm obviously behind on the NPS learning curve compared to you all, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If one wants to generate bacterial biofilm as a food source for NPS corals, isn't this something that could be accomplished to a greater extent in a chamber seperate from the aquarium system?
For instance, could one use a container that is dosed with a carbon source and household ammonia/decaying organic matter that contains stones or some other surface for bacterial growth that could be shaken into the aquarium like the zeo rocks?
Or am I missing something?
NPS newbie question
Hi guys,
I'm obviously behind on the NPS learning curve compared to you all, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If one wants to generate bacterial biofilm as a food source for NPS corals, isn't this something that could be accomplished to a greater extent in a chamber seperate from the aquarium system?
For instance, could one use a container that is dosed with a carbon source and household ammonia/decaying organic matter that contains stones or some other surface for bacterial growth that could be shaken into the aquarium like the zeo rocks?
Or am I missing something?
Whalehead9
New member
The great debate about it is whether or not it is needed. I have come to the conclusion that a bacteria growth is key to a zoo population, which in turn feeds pods and other small inverts to help a healthy tank. But primarily the additions of vodka are a source to reduce Nitrate and PO4. With high food inputs it is very helpful.
sammy33
Member
Just a follow up. There is a new "method" for maintaining ULNS. This is the NeoZeo method from Brightwell Aquatics. A microbe/enzyme and carbon source style system with the zeo stones and a group of supplements to feed corals and influence colors.
The neozeo manual is 18 pages and has an interesting section regarding NPS coral care - from Brightwell:
Interesting.
The neozeo manual is 18 pages and has an interesting section regarding NPS coral care - from Brightwell:
Interesting.
