Problem with corals

HowardCath

New member
Where to begin? I have been able to attend only a couple of meetings and meet few of you. I have a 120 gal which was fish only for 3 years and reef for the past 2 ½ years; 155 pounds of live rock; VHO lighting (bulbs changed yearly) I have eight fish (a sailfin tang, 2 clowns, a blue damsel, a royal gramma, a bar goby, 2 pajama cardinals), a cleaner shrimp and a banded shrimp. I have a large 10” rock of green zooanthid polyps which have spread to another rock; a leather coral which has grown from 3” to 6” now; a few green mushrooms. The rock is generously covered with purple coralline algae.

Many corals have not survived, however, and I’m uncertain why. Most recently, I tried robust corals such as yellow polyps (12/05) and green star polyps (2/06). The yellow polyps initially seemed to thrive and grow, but then atrophied. My green star polyps seemed okay for a while and now are almost totally atrophied.

I have my water tested at the Aquatic Critter and I’m always told that it is fine. I have faithfully exchanged 20 gal. every month. I do not have a skimmer. Weekly, I add 4 teaspoons of Kent Superbuffer-dkH, 40 cc of Seachem Reef Complete (calcium, magnesium, strontium), and 3 drops of iodine as Lugol’s solution.

I realized that in summer, my temperature was spiking up to ~ 84 degrees. I thought this might be why some corals were okay for a while, but were perhaps dying with the seasonal temperature changes. At the first of May, I vented the top of my glass canopy and placed a fan which dropped my temp. to a constant 79 degrees. So far, the star polyps seem to still be wasting away.

I have always bought my water at the Critter. Using evaporation to control temp., however, I am having to buy and transport 20 gal. of salt water plus 30 gal. of fresh each month. This is more of a chore than I want. I assume that most of you make your own water.

Dilemma â€"œ what is the likelihood that temperature was a big part of my problem to begin with? If yes, then should I look into a reverse osmosis/deionization unit? I would likely need it to be set up to automatically top off my tank. I have a sink under the tank, but no other good place to collect and store large volumes of water. Will it be worth the cost and effort? I had little need for fresh water top off before I opened the canopy for temp. control, but chillers look expensive and my space is limited under the tank.

There is a limit as to what I want to invest, especially if I’m uncertain as to what will work. I might rather just know what my problem is and I would be satisfied to limit my goals. If you have any advice, please respond as if talking to a newbie! Thanks!!

- Howard

112918Tank.jpg
 
Seems like alot of lugols to be adding. You don't really have that much coral to be uptaking that much. If it were me, i would stop all additives and do regular, weekly water changes (about 25%) with water that has been vigorously mixed, aerated and temp matched to your tank for at least 24 hours. You could even break it down and do smaller changes more often if you find that easier.
I don't think a temp spike of 84 is that big of a deal. I think your water parems are off. Steady water changes will bring them back into check.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7974069#post7974069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danieljames
Seems like alot of lugols to be adding. You don't really have that much coral to be uptaking that much. If it were me, i would stop all additives and do regular, weekly water changes (about 25%) with water that has been vigorously mixed, aerated and temp matched to your tank for at least 24 hours. You could even break it down and do smaller changes more often if you find that easier.
I don't think a temp spike of 84 is that big of a deal. I think your water parems are off. Steady water changes will bring them back into check.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the post. I do add Reef Complete and Buffer weekly as well. My corals let me know when it's time to add. I have a ton of Green Star Polyps if your looking for any, they're taking over my tank like mad....
 
I agree with the water changes. Also, I wouldn't dose any buffer, iodine, calcium, etc unless you know the value in the tank. So I recommend getting some good tests and testing the water for yourself. I recommend Salifert or Seachem tests. Since this was a FOWLR for many years, I'll bet your nitrates are sky high. Water changes will help with that in addition to having a leveling effect on anything else that may be chemically out of whack (iodine, etc.). Your phosphate level may be out of whack too.

I'd get good tests for nitrate, calcium, alkalinity, pH, and phosphate. I'd get titratable kits for the Ca and Alk (easier to read an exact level). Once you know the params that are out of whack, you can then come up with a plan to get them back into shape. Don't do anything too drastic, because everything in the system is likely adjusted to the current params and changing things too quickly can cause harm.

I live in Brentwood and work over at Vandy. If you are nearby I could come over and measure some stuff for you.

Jack
 
Oh, and yes on the RO/DI. RO/DI isn't related to your tank temp, but if you are using tap water (dechlorinated), you are adding a heap of phosphates to your system.
 
Good point, Dave. It could be leaching coppper back out. In which case, I think there are some copper absorbing media.
As far as no skimmer, I have had luck on smaller tanks, but only if I had surface skimming. Is this RR? If not, depending on what kind of filtration, you might check into a $10 surface skimmer to hook up to the inlet of a pump to pull the film off the surface. In Jenn's 20L, without the surface skimmer and with a skimmer, it had problems. With no skimmer and surface skimming, it does well.

I agree you would want your own RO/DI. If you are looking at 20 gallons of salt water at say $1 per gallon and 30 gallons of freash at $.50/gallon, you're spending $35 a month, plus gas money and wear and tear on your body moving all the water around. For around $100 or $150, airwaterice.com can set you up with a nice RO/DI, I think. Pays for itself in 3-4 months. Then you can test TDS out of the unit and know if something is out of whack. Get a Brute trashcan and fill with RO/DI and another for salt to have a continuous supply for changes, etc. These take up less room than many containers, since they are upright, so they might be an option for you.

I'd agree on not adding unless you can test and know the values. I'm a hypocrite because I dose Iodine, too, without testing. I only drop around 5 drops every two or three weeks, though in a highly stocked tank. It doesn't sound like you have too many softies, so you could easily be overdoing the Iodine. That isn't something that is commonly tested for at LFS. Salifert makes some of the better kits out there in the lower price range. You'd need Amonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Calcium, alk, pH, and Iodine if ou add it. I don't test for Iodine, but I add much less frequently than instructed. Phosphate is another good one to have, but I haven't found one that is very easy to read aside from the LaMotte, but they are high dollar.

As Daniel stated, stop all additions for a little while and run more water changes. If you can add surface skimming (if it doesn't already have some sort of overflow), I'd give that a shot too. If copper was ever added, it could be the culprit, too. HTH
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7974069#post7974069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danieljames
Seems like alot of lugols to be adding. You don't really have that much coral to be uptaking that much. If it were me, i would stop all additives and do regular, weekly water changes (about 25%) with water that has been vigorously mixed, aerated and temp matched to your tank for at least 24 hours. You could even break it down and do smaller changes more often if you find that easier.
I don't think a temp spike of 84 is that big of a deal. I think your water parems are off. Steady water changes will bring them back into check.

That is something that crossed my mind in the past, but I didn't know if perhaps the iodine was removed over time by organisms other than corals (of which I have few). It seemed to me that a slow, toxic process was possible as new corals usually did well, but only for a time. I thought I had been told that there was no good test for iodine levels. I think I will just stop the iodine for now. If it is the iodine, do you have any idea how long it might take to clear. How would I know? -- Response of the few remaining star polyps? At some future point, I would need to add iodine again for some corals. How would I judge when? When that time comes, should I change to another form of iodine?

Thanks for taking time to reply!
- Howard
 
The copper absorbing stuff is made by seachem and is called cuprasorb (if I remember correctly). It comes in a little bag that could be put anywhere you have some flow going. At the time I needed it, I was still running a hang on the back filter and I just shoved it next to the actual filter. They can be recharged using acid as per the instructions, so they will last quite a long time. That said, the reason I realized I had a copper problem is that my snails were dropping dead after a week or two of adding them. My corals, many of which you've reported having problems with, looked fine. I'd be surprised it was that if your other inverts are fine (although, you don't say anything about those in your post).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7975300#post7975300 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
Is this RR? If not, depending on what kind of filtration, you might check into a $10 surface skimmer to hook up to the inlet of a pump to pull the film off the surface. In Jenn's 20L, without the surface skimmer and with a skimmer, it had problems. With no skimmer and surface skimming, it does well. HTH

If "RR" = "Reef ready, aquaria with pre-drilled holes and overflows", then yes, it is. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll reread your reply and think about your suggestions. Thanks!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7975416#post7975416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DMBillies
The copper ... the reason I realized I had a copper problem is that my snails were dropping dead after a week or two of adding them. My corals, many of which you've reported having problems with, looked fine. I'd be surprised it was that if your other inverts are fine (although, you don't say anything about those in your post).

I think my snails and shrimp have done well.
 
I live in Brentwood and work over at Vandy. If you are nearby I could come over and measure some stuff for you.

Jack [/B]

I would certainly welcome, and really appreciate, a visit, if it might work for you at some point. I live in the Hillwood area. Let me know.

- Howard
 
FWIW I never dose anything with a very heavy stocked mixed reef. Other than daily PH and calcium but I know how much my tank needs of the 2 part from daily testing and monitering for awile. I agree the self testing and your own RO/DI will save you lots of time and hassel. My temp spikes to 83-84 many times when I forget to turn on the fan the last moth or so (hot days) with no ill affects. If I know its gonna be real hot I try to kill the halides when the sun sets and shines in on the tank to help with the heat.
Hopefully when you start testing and add only what is needed your problems will be fixed. Nothing is more disharting than things dieing and not knowing the reason. Good luck.
 
Also I got a RO/DI that instaled under the kitchen sink with the drinking water adapter. I have a long 1/4" tube that runs from the DI side straight to a big rubbermaid I mix SW in beside the tank. I run the water overnight, add salt and let it Mix with a small pump for the day maybe 2 if I am lazy. Then I siphon out 25 gallons and pump in the new water via the small mixing pump. I never lift a heavy jug or nothing. Very easy way to do water changes. You can string the RO/DI tube any length, it has the same pressure as your water in the house does and will make it any length. I spliced in another 25' this week to reach all the way to my basement from the kitchen sink! A whole lot easier than carring 270 + gallong of water! I will do the same methode for my water changes ( 50 gallon can) and filling my top off resivor in the big tank and save my back from those heavy 5 gallon jugs! I love the ro water for the kitchen also, and my unit cost $125 from ebay I think.
 
I got an iodide test kit (Seachem) at the Critter today. I was disappointed to find my level seems to be okay or low (I got ~0.02 with natural seawater being 0.06 mg/L). I hope the test is accurate, but that might have been the easiest problem to fix.
 
Lugols is iodine, not iodide howard. The iodide is a much more benign (for lack of a better word) additive, and relatively non toxic. Iodine is highly toxic even in low concentrations. How the test results would differ if you used one for the other would be a good question for Randy over in his chemistry forum, but i would bet that they are not interchangeable.
 
That briefly crossed my mind, but the box of the test kit was labeled "Iodine & Iodide" and yet the single color scale included only said iodide! I would love for my test interpretation to be wrong, as it would still seem to be the easiest fix. Thanks for bringing this question up!!
 
08/22/2006 09:46 PM

HowardCath
Registered Member

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Nashville
Occupation: Ophthalmologist
Posts: 16


Can iodide test kit measure iodine?
I got an iodide test kit (Seachem) that was labeled "Iodide and Iodine". I use Lugol's solution (iodine), 3 drops/week in a 120 gal. reef tank, but very few corals at present. The one color scale in the kit said "iodide" and water tested low at 0.02 mg/L. Would this truly reflect what I need to measure?

Hobby Experience: 2 yrs salt, 2 yrs reef
Current Tanks: 125 gal, 44"Wx22"Hx29"D, VHO lighting, soft corals, 12 fish
Interests: Kids x 2, Goldendoodles x 2



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08/23/2006 06:33 AM

Randy Holmes-Farley
Chemistry Staff

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Occupation: Chemist (Drug Discovery at Genzyme)
Posts: 44811



The forms that will be present in seawater are iodide (I-), iodate (IO3-), and organic forms. None of the iodine kits test for organic forms, and some test for iodide and iodate separately. I'll leave it to Habib in the Salifert forum to discuss what is detected by the different parts of his kit in case it has changed since I last used it.

FWIW, Lugols is part iodide and part molecular iodine (I2). The I2 quickly reacts to form other things (iodide,iodate,organic forms, etc) when added to seawater.

Finally, I'm not a fan of adding supplemental iodine to reefs as I don't think it beneficial for any organisms that we normally keep. I've not added any supplemental iodine for many years.

These articles have more:


Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgae Growth
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2003/chem.htm


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Randy Holmes-Farley
Want to talk chemistry? Try the Reef Chemistry Forum at Reef Central

Hobby Experience: 10 years with reefs
Current Tanks: 120 and 90 gallon mixed reefs
Interests: Reefkeeping, science, photography
 
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