Problems w/ 20 gallon

[Hyp81]

In March 2015 I established a 20 gallon standard marine aquarium. It's dimensions are 24" x 12" x 17". I've been a freshwater keeper for years and I've dabbled in marine in the past but never for long and not too successfully.

I started with about 15-20 lbs of rock, part of which was purchased live from my LFS. The other part was baserock. I did not weigh this rock myself-- going based off of what the LFS told me.

I cycled the tank without living things for 3 months (March - June) and added a little fish food each day to provide nitrogen to jump start the cycle. I tested the water once a week throughout this process with an API test kit. I kept track of the ammonia and nitrites as they started to rise. Eventually nitrate. I've never tested for anything else. My salinity at this point was 1.023 and my temp was 82-84.

I added a shrimp and two fish (percula clown and a royal gramma from my local PetCo, only store that sells s/w fish near me) in July 2015. The shrimp is still alive today and doing well. The two fish got an ich-like infection and died. I knew the parasites would have a cycle, and everywhere online I read that 8 weeks of a fallow tank would break that cycle, since I could not treat with the shrimp in there. So I waited 4 months just to be sure and added another clown and a gramma. The gramma disappeared after about two weeks. Never found a body. A month later I cam in and the clown was dead and floating. Never saw any sign of parasites. So that brings us to around January or so of this past year. I've not added any fish since and been trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong. Through all this the shrimp has been fine, and I have also kept 2 snails and 4 blue leg hermits. In August I decided maybe I should forgo fish and just do a reef instead. I bought a new light (two T5 bulbs, one 10K and the other an actinic). I have these set to 10 hours. I added two frags, also purchased from PetCo- a green star polyp and another pink polyp that was just labelled "soft polyp." Both died.

I would really like to make a reef out of this tank. I added some more dry rock this week and arranged it to make some ledges. I have two HOB filters now for over 400 gph water movement, drawing water from behind the rocks and putting it out over the top of them. I have not been using any filter media in them.

In talking with other people and doing some reading, here are some things I feel I need to improve on. Please let me know if there is anything else to add. I really am trying hard to make this successful and I do read a lot and follow a lot of forums. I've been talking to people on some other sites and have felt like the responses I've gotten have been very condescending and not very clear.

1. Temp too high. Bringing that down (it's down to 79* now) Probably the main cause of coral death.
2. Salinity could go up a bit. Raising that slowly. Goal = 1.026 for corals
3. Check the Phosphates and use a fresh kit of a different brand test kit to check nitrates to see if either are an issue.
4. Work on improving flow pattern w/ addition of a powerhead, or two, to prevent dead spots.
5. Explore the potential use of chemical filtration media and possibly mechanical filtration. (Socks, floss, etc)
6. Do not buy from PetCo. Will explore the local fish store (further away) and some online sources for future stock.
7. Possibly remove or rearrange some rock. Conflicting ideas on this.

Now one question I do have... with the new dry base rock I added, how long will it take for that to become live rock? I have no way to actually "seed it" as I don't know anyone else who keeps a saltwater tank around here. What should my time frame be for adding corals? I was hoping to start with some mushroom corals and perhaps some LPS corals, but I want them to survive and do well.

Here is the tank today.

 

[ssick92]

In March 2015 I established a 20 gallon standard marine aquarium. It's dimensions are 24" x 12" x 17". I've been a freshwater keeper for years and I've dabbled in marine in the past but never for long and not too successfully.

I started with about 15-20 lbs of rock, part of which was purchased live from my LFS. The other part was baserock. I did not weigh this rock myself-- going based off of what the LFS told me.

I cycled the tank without living things for 3 months (March - June) and added a little fish food each day to provide nitrogen to jump start the cycle. I tested the water once a week throughout this process with an API test kit. I kept track of the ammonia and nitrites as they started to rise. Eventually nitrate. I've never tested for anything else. My salinity at this point was 1.023 and my temp was 82-84.

I added a shrimp and two fish (percula clown and a royal gramma from my local PetCo, only store that sells s/w fish near me) in July 2015. The shrimp is still alive today and doing well. The two fish got an ich-like infection and died. I knew the parasites would have a cycle, and everywhere online I read that 8 weeks of a fallow tank would break that cycle, since I could not treat with the shrimp in there. So I waited 4 months just to be sure and added another clown and a gramma. The gramma disappeared after about two weeks. Never found a body. A month later I cam in and the clown was dead and floating. Never saw any sign of parasites. So that brings us to around January or so of this past year. I've not added any fish since and been trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong. Through all this the shrimp has been fine, and I have also kept 2 snails and 4 blue leg hermits. In August I decided maybe I should forgo fish and just do a reef instead. I bought a new light (two T5 bulbs, one 10K and the other an actinic). I have these set to 10 hours. I added two frags, also purchased from PetCo- a green star polyp and another pink polyp that was just labelled "soft polyp." Both died.

I would really like to make a reef out of this tank. I added some more dry rock this week and arranged it to make some ledges. I have two HOB filters now for over 400 gph water movement, drawing water from behind the rocks and putting it out over the top of them. I have not been using any filter media in them.

In talking with other people and doing some reading, here are some things I feel I need to improve on. Please let me know if there is anything else to add. I really am trying hard to make this successful and I do read a lot and follow a lot of forums. I've been talking to people on some other sites and have felt like the responses I've gotten have been very condescending and not very clear.

1. Temp too high. Bringing that down (it's down to 79* now) Probably the main cause of coral death.
- Not necessarily the cause of death, but 79 is a better target. Some temp swings are okay, just make sure it stays within 2-3 degrees each day. I would argue that temperature is probably the LEAST likely cause of coral death -- most likely cause being other parameters (calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, nitrate, and phosphate).
2. Salinity could go up a bit. Raising that slowly. Goal = 1.026 for corals
- Again, probably not cause of death, but 1.025 or 1.026 is a better target.
3. Check the Phosphates and use a fresh kit of a different brand test kit to check nitrates to see if either are an issue.
- Phosphates and nitrates are big issues for corals, not for fish. If these are high it probably played a part in your coral death, but fish can handle fairly high levels without issue. The best way to eliminate nitrate is water changes, along with running a skimmer to slow the buildup of nitrate in the tank initially. The best way to get rid of phosphate is to run a GFO reactor, but this is probably too advanced for your experience level currently. Salifert is my brand of choice for testing. ELOS and Red Sea work fine too, along with a few others. Avoid API for all precise testing as they are known to not be very accurate and have a large margin of error between tests.
4. Work on improving flow pattern w/ addition of a powerhead, or two, to prevent dead spots.
- Great advice, definitely add some flow because it will help aerate the water and keep enough available dissolved oxygen in the tank for your critters. This will also help keep detritus from building up and turning into a nitrate factory.
5. Explore the potential use of chemical filtration media and possibly mechanical filtration. (Socks, floss, etc)
- Good advice, this will help with your nitrate and phosphate build up, but isn't as important for fish health.
6. Do not buy from PetCo. Will explore the local fish store (further away) and some online sources for future stock.
- Best advice anyone can give.
7. Possibly remove or rearrange some rock. Conflicting ideas on this.
- Mostly personal preference, but having too much rock can make it difficult to get flow throughout the whole tank, which will then let detritus (poop, etc.) build up in/behind the rock which will lead to phosphate and nitrate -- again, important to avoid for corals, not so much for fish. In my opinion, you have too much rock, especially for the amount of flow you have. If you have more flow, and some of that flow is directed into/behind the rocks, then you can get away with it, but for what you have right now that much rock will be more headache than it is worth.

Now one question I do have... with the new dry base rock I added, how long will it take for that to become live rock? I have no way to actually "seed it" as I don't know anyone else who keeps a saltwater tank around here. What should my time frame be for adding corals? I was hoping to start with some mushroom corals and perhaps some LPS corals, but I want them to survive and do well.
- It will take months for this new rock, and older rock, to become really "live". As long as your tank has cycled completely (see my other comments below), then you can start adding soft corals, but I would focus on making sure you can keep fish first.

Sorry about the struggles, but hey, this is a learning opportunity right??

Anyway, here is my advice. Start with a Fish Only With Live Rock tank (commonly called a FOWLR tank). If you can't keep fish, you likely can't keep corals. Corals will need much more testing, maintenance, etc. on your end to ensure longevity of the tank. Once your fish are stable and happy, then you can venture into keeping corals, starting with softies, and then moving into stony corals once you can keep all your softies. In order to keep corals you will need to monitor and maintain calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, nitrate, and phosphate in addition to the salinity, temp, and pH that you would need to maintain for fish only. My guess is you have no idea where most of these levels are at currently, which makes keeping corals virtually impossible.

First of all, seems like you cycled the tank correctly. When you were testing, I'm assuming you were able to see the ammonia level spike, then the nitrite level spike, and both returned to 0? If not, you might not have had enough nitrifying bacteria in the tank to convert the fish poo into harmless nitrate and the buildup of ammonia could have played a part in the fish deaths. If you did see your cycle come full circle (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite), then this likely played no part in your fish deaths.

If the second part of the paragraph above is true, then item #6 is probably your biggest issue with your fish losses and the other advice you received is spot on. DO NOT BUY FROM PETCO, PETSMART, or any similar large pet stores. They do not take care of their fish well, and the added stress of moving will often lead to death quickly after transferring to your tank. Another possibility is that you introduced ich into the tank (again, via Petco), and the fish were stressed from the move which caused ich to attack.

Did you acclimate your fish to your tank water at all, or just move the fish from the bag the store gave them to you directly into your tank? If you did not acclimate them at all, then the differences in water parameters between Petco's water and your water shocked, or stressed, the fish even more which played a part in their death (see a pattern here?). The best way to acclimate is to empty the bag from the fish store into a bowl or container of some sort (I use a pitcher), and then use an air tube with a valve to drip your tank water into the container with the fish. Once you have almost doubled the amount of water in the container (50% tank water, 50% store water), then pour out about 1/2 the water in the container and continue to drip more of your tank water into the container. This process should take about 30 minutes or even longer if the water parameters are drastically different (temp, salinity, etc.).

I have also added my comments about your previous advice above in BOLD.

I'd start looking at the issues I mentioned above, and see if you can pinpoint where why your fish struggled so much. I'm sure others will chime in with things that I missed, but it gives you a starting point.

Hopefully that helps some. And remember to not get discouraged. This hobby has a very steep learning curve, but once you get over the hump, it is an immeasurable amount of joy knowing that you can keep a living reef in a small glass box and watching things grow and develop over the years.

 

[Hyp81]

I did track the rise of ammonia and nitrites, and eventually nitrates. I kept the results in a spread sheet and shared it with my aquatic science classes as we were starting to look at nitrogen cycles (the tank is in my science classroom).

I am going to try and go to the local fish store this Friday since we have a day off of school (school is open but no kids). Would it be best to start with a single fish? Should I choose a clown, instead of the royal gramma? Or is there a better species? I would like to eventually have 2-3 small, brightly colored fish in the tank, preferably ones that are active. I know domino and other damsels are very hardy but I have heard and read that they are too aggressive to house in such a small tank with other species. Also, is it best to try and seek out a tank raised fish if possible? Am I right in that these will be more likely to survive a newb?

 

[joshbrookkate]

Great advice from ssick92!

I think you have too much rock in there, too. I would remove all of the base rock, for sure. Then, using the beautiful pieces of tonga rock that you have, I would create an aquascape that has caves, and nooks and crannies for fish and inverts to move in and out of and hide if need be. Make sure the finished scape is secured, either with putty, zip ties or both. There is a great sticky in the " new to the hobby" section that gives advice on how to aquascape.

Also, I would hold off on getting a fish until you get that done and have things stabilised.

Take things slow. This is a good lesson for students in a science class, as well as being one of the necessities of a successful reef tank.

Good luck! I'll be following along to see how you're doing. Have fun!

Michelle

 

[marleesan]

I also recommend looking into setting up a quarantine tank to prevent parasites and diseases

 

[ssick92]

I did track the rise of ammonia and nitrites, and eventually nitrates. I kept the results in a spread sheet and shared it with my aquatic science classes as we were starting to look at nitrogen cycles (the tank is in my science classroom).

I am going to try and go to the local fish store this Friday since we have a day off of school (school is open but no kids). Would it be best to start with a single fish? Should I choose a clown, instead of the royal gramma? Or is there a better species? I would like to eventually have 2-3 small, brightly colored fish in the tank, preferably ones that are active. I know domino and other damsels are very hardy but I have heard and read that they are too aggressive to house in such a small tank with other species. Also, is it best to try and seek out a tank raised fish if possible? Am I right in that these will be more likely to survive a newb?

Yes, I would start with the single clownfish, both the percula and oscellaris clowns are very hardy and can take a lot variation in water parameters. I agree though that I would wait until your aquascape is the way you want it. If that means making adjustments (removal, relocation, etc.) then you can get the clown after. If it is the way you want it to stay, that is fine, it may just be more difficult to maintain later on, but if you want to leave it then go ahead and put in your clownfish.

Tank raised will typically be hardier, though finding a tank bred one isn't necessary.

 

[sde1500]

Great advice so far. I'd def redo some of the rock. Keep the Tonga, and rescape it to look nicer. I'd add a powerhead for better flow, and maybe look into a HOB skimmer instead of the power filters. Though they aren't bad. What do you have in them, carbon filet floss etc? Also check out QT for your fish. It really helps. Tank transfer method, prazipro and maybe formalin or ParaGuard. Disease section has a lot of topics on this. And get a clown. For the most part you can back a bus over them and they'll keep rocking.

 

[Hyp81]

Great advice so far. I'd def redo some of the rock. Keep the Tonga, and rescape it to look nicer. I'd add a powerhead for better flow, and maybe look into a HOB skimmer instead of the power filters. Though they aren't bad. What do you have in them, carbon filet floss etc? Also check out QT for your fish. It really helps. Tank transfer method, prazipro and maybe formalin or ParaGuard. Disease section has a lot of topics on this. And get a clown. For the most part you can back a bus over them and they'll keep rocking.

What is "the tonga?" The purple rock? How much should I take out? I want to make sure I have enough surface area for the corals I eventually want to keep.

Not running any media at the moment. I am going to add activated charcoal, for sure. I am also going to purchase a PO4 test kit and a new nitrates kit, to check the results. If I am having issues I may consider media to address these (though of course the 'trates I'll want to control at the source).

 

[sde1500]

Tonga is the branch rock you have in there.

 

[MreasyC]

Way to much rock can definitely be a problem for your flow.

I would also consider adding 1 small powerhead for additional flow

As far as the fish, it's really common for petco fish to already have it. The worst part is the parasite may not even be showing yet. This is usually due to the people working there not knowing much about saltwater husbandry. Always make sure they are taking food before you buy and watch for them scratching their bodies on the substrate. <--- definite sign of parasites


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