Problems with skunk clown larva

[JamisonSmith]

Hello all,

I am stuck and need some help from the experts. I have had 3 hatches of skunk clownfish given to me from a friend who has them regularly spawning in her reef tank. The first two hatches were decent ~a couple hundred, the third hatch didn't have many at all due to an oxygen depletion (we think). The Tunzes were removed for cleaning that day and the parents weren't observed fanning the nest at all and we think that resulted in a low hatch. Does anyone have any experience with that?

Anyways on to my current problem. Hatch 4 was a great hatch with probably around 500 or so larva collected. I have been co-culturing with rotifers and IA and have only had probably 100-125 mortalities so far and we are on day 4. I think some of the mortality is due to low rotifer density, but I have split my cultures into three different cultures to spread out the pressure and I think that my density levels are starting to rebound (which is good because I got another hatch of O's last night from another friend). So with previous hatches of skunks, around day 14-16 which from what I have read they should be going through meta, they hang out at the surface in the corners. Their behavior is somewhat erratic with darting about the edge of the tank, again at the surface and doing tight circles, spirals. None of my previous hatches have made it through meta, they seem to all die right around this time period. It is frustrating as they are right on the edge, they look like little skunks, just no color formation yet.

I have kept water parameters very stable and clean with daily water changes. I also added a couple of drops of iodine to the water change water as I read that this helps fish get through meta and is good for marking development. I added a small sponge filter on day 14 and have had at least two open air sticks with about 2-3 bubbles per second (maybe more).

I read that it could have been due to a ruptured stomach due to BBS, so on hatch 3, I only offered a few BBS per surviving fish.

Any thoughts as to what this behavior could be from, stray current in the tank from the heater, poor oxygen levels, etc? I don't think that there is stray current as occasionally I go down in the basement in my PJs to feed and don't have shoes on when I stick my hand on the tank and I don't get any jolt.

Any help is mucho gracias!

Cheers,

Jamison

 

[mwp]

Try enriching the rotifers you feed into the tank with Selcon...it may help. That's unfortunately my only guess; I know the skunk group can be more difficult to rear than others, and I only have Onyx Percs and GBG's to show for ALL my efforts in '06

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

BTW, drop an ammonia alert badge in that tank and take out the sponge filter...when I had one in the tank it only caused more harm than good. My perc babies typically have been in a tank with only an airstone for 15+ days without any real issues...conversely sponge filtration rapidly cycled and caused all sorts of nitrite problems.

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

Hold on Nelly!

I put a cycled sponge filter in a stand alone tub of about 20 freshly metamorphosized fish, and it did just fine. I did not need to do much in the way of water changes for a couple of weeks.

A properly cycled sponge filter will cause not problems at all, and will handle the ammonia and nitrite.

To cycle the filter, put it, running, in your display's sump or a cycled tank and leave it there for a couple of weeks.

Of course, it can be done without a filter, as Matt has stated, but not without frequent large water changes to combat ammonia, among other things.

Everyone does things a little differently, and different ways can be successful, but sometimes we forget to mention the little chores (like water changes) that we take for granted as a part of good husbandry.

Also, if you are going to use the ammonia alert badge, test it first over a bottle of ammonia, to be sure it is working. I've had a bad one tell me everything was fine while my fish died of ammonia poisoning. Mostly, they are good, though.

 

[JamisonSmith]

Thanks all. I am running an ammonia badge, but I haven't tested it so I will when I get home from work.

Matt, I will try the enriching with Selcon to see what happens.

It si very bizarre as the fish look great, full bellies, nice and plump and then dead.

I have numerous sponge filters in my sump running so they should all be cycled to some degree. so I don't think that it would be shock of initiating a cycle.

Any other thoughts? I am about ready to give up on Skunks though.

Thanks,

Jamison

 

[mwp]

Don't give up 'cause they can definitely be done! Perservere!

I'm leaning towards the selcon for the following reasons:

1. Sounds like the sponge isn't cycling, water quality is OK etc (according to your initial post).
2. Sounds like they're having problems with meta, which is by everyone's account a stressful time.
3. Selcon helps combat the mystery / shock related deaths in Bangaii's, so maybe it could help here too?

BTW, what salinity are you running at? Are you dropping it from broodstock salinity?

One more thought, maybe CEASE water changes during the meta phase, resuming them once they're through...I think that's a Wilkerson suggestion...

Matt

 

[JamisonSmith]

Thanks Matt.

I have been dropping the salinity on day 1 and keepipng it there. I will hold-off on the water changes right around meta and see if that works. I have been enriching the rotifers with elcon every other day now and see if that does anything. I still probably have well over 200 today on day 7 post-hatch and they all have nice plump bellies and are very active. So maybe some will pull through.
Thanks again for all of the advice.

Jamison

 

[mwp]

Jamison, I know a lot of breeders drop salinity, but FWIW I don't and I don't seem to have any trouble at full strength saltwater. Just another thing to try on future batches. I think holding off on water changes *may* work, or it *may* be that you have to do MASSIVE water changes to keep the water pristine during meta.

Well, good luck, thankfully you'll get more batches to work with in the future if this one doesn't work out, right?

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

Matt doesn't seem to have any trouble, except that he has not raised that many clownfish YET! (I have no doubt that he will!)

I drop salinity. Of course it can be done at NSS, but fish bodies are lower in salinity than the ocean. Osmoregulation takes energy, and I want all my fish to spend their energy growing, not removing salt from themselves. That's just what I do. JMO, but hundreds of healthy clownfish cannot be all wrong....

Another good reason to do it is that it reduces your operating expenses.

 

[mwp]

Jamison, in response to Kathy's post, all I can say is that on all counts, the science and facts support everything she's said regarding dropping salinity.

For me, I'm just lazy. HOWEVER, it's my understanding that IF there were nitrite issues, higher salinities nullify that problem, so there's a case to be made for "full strength" too. My only reason for suggesting it is to offer another variable to consider, if you're starting to grasp at straws. I.e. while unlikely, you could be doing something (besides dropping salinity) in that salinity drop that's causing problems down the line.

I.e. when I went through 40+ mandarin spanws in 2006, it took TONS of tinkering and changing things until I really clicked into something that worked for semi-consistent hatching. Turned out to be a combination of a temp increase and NO water movement of any kind (which is in stark contrast to what other breeders have reported).

Persistence is most important, they're clowns, you WILL get 'em done! Good luck!

Matt

 

[JamisonSmith]

Thanks againMatt and Kathy! Things are progressing well on this batch. And yes, there should be many more in the future if I continue to want to try this particular clownfish. It sure makes me appreciate how much easier (at least for me) Ocellaris are to get through meta.

I will continue to keep you posted if I stumble across the silver bullet that works for me on these.

Take care,

Jamison

 

[Noof]

Just as a side issue,
What are you feeding these youngsters?
BBS can cause more problems than they are worth.
Do the dead ones show any signs of damage other than the gills not moving and the tail not flapping about?

 

[JamisonSmith]

Noof,

When they are dying they are on mostly BBS but still receiving phyto-enriched rotifers.

No signs of damage to the carcass other than just not breathing, not moving, nice full belly and laying on the floor of the tank.

This current atch is doing very well. All left (~200) have nice plump bellies, very active and alert. Starting to hang out more around the sides of the tank, but not just at the surface similar to previous hatches. Maybe the Selcon-enriched rotifers have been the key difference??? One interesting thing about this hatch, some of the larva are REALLY big for 8-9 days old, and compared to the others. Almost double the length to some. They have already started taking the overall appearance of a skunk clownfish, just without the coloration.

Thanks again for everyone's help so far.

Jamison

 

[Noof]

As far as I know there is a rumour that NHBBS cause liver damage in clownfish. I remember reading something about it in MMoes book on the orchid dottyback? Maybe split the next lot and try a ground up flake or substitute in parallel with the control group which get bbs.
?
interested to hear how you go

 

[JamisonSmith]

Here is another interesting behavior that I have not seen in the previous hatches. Quite a few (20 0or so) are all swimming at the edge of the tank right on the surface. They appear to be all in a diagonal line kind of like: //////// . They are very active swimming and then switching places in the "line". Not lethargic or appear to be having any problems, just staying very closely to each other. Since I haven't had this many to survive to this size, maybe they are acting normal for skunk clowns. Wilkerson had pictures of them huddling together for protection and socialization, maybe this is the early stages of that behavior?

Any thoughts?

I will try to take a picture later today and post tonight to try and show what I am talking about.

Jamison

 

[JamisonSmith]

Images of skunk larva behavior

Images of skunk larva behavior

Hello all,

Finally made time to take a couple of quick pictures of the skunk clowns huddling along the side of the tank. They do this both along the sides at the surface of the tank as well as in the corners. Again, I don't think that this is something bad, just forming the social cohesion, based on some of the information that Wilkerson provided in her book. Any thoughts?

They are probably only a couple of days away from meta hopefully.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks for all of your help too, maybe this is going to be the first batch that I can get some to pull through meta!!:rollface:

Jamison

 

[Kathy55g]

Usually, I have at least some of my ocellaris doing that same behaviour. I don't think it is significant, as they all grow normally whether they do this or not.

Congrats on your success!

 

[Noof]

Hey,
My blacks usually sleep like this up to and after met.
I wouldnt be worried about this just yet! Wait til they die en masse

 

[mwp]

Looks just like my Percs at 15+ days...all huddled at the surface and strangely colored..

FWIW,

Matt

 

[Lance one]

IME
My Ocellaris have a similar behavior.
They find a spot near the wall or corner with just enough current and swim in place. While swimming in place they occasionally dart off to feed. It's like they find the "sweet spot" where the food just comes wandering buy. No need to swim around hunting. I start to see this behavior on about day 3 or 4 and continue till a few days before meta, sometimes longer.

Lance