proposed stocklist

F

flashyleopard

Member
I have posted some other proposals in the newbie section, but after much consideration, I have settled (for the moment) on the following fish to go in my mixed reef.I will have a 72''X18''X22''
or standard, reef ready, 125gallon tank, with a 40 gallon sump.
I will be using RO/DI water, b/c I intend to have a fair number of corals, though most will be LPS and polyp types, there wil be a dozen or so sps.I plan on using 2lbs of fresh(fresh collected and unprocessed) live rock per gallon of water and place in ''U'' shaped patter, with higher areas near the sides and back, but allowing an open front of clear substrate and swimming room.I also plan to place at least 90% of the liverock completely off of the sand, by placing the structures up on eggcrate and PVC ''tables'', to facilitate detritus removal and allow for additional hiding for the shy species.
I am as yest undecided on what type of layout and substrate I will be using, though with the needs of some of the fish I have in mind, I will be using a medium grade fresh(not bagged and sitting on a shelf) live sand of some sort.I would like a deep sand bed, but I really haet the look of the sand against the front, so my current idea is to use courser sand near the front to keep the finer sand in place and gently slope it to deeper sand towards the back with finer sand for the burrowers and utilize the DSB in a bucket idea, instead of one in the main set-up.I can't imagine more than 3'' of sand in the display and no less than 2'' of depth.
I will also be utilizing a refugium and I will be seeding and feeding it for maximum growth or small crustaceans and other tasties for the main display fish to enjoy.
I feel the above information is important to give an idea of what the fish will have available as far as hiding places, swimming room, food, cover, and overall health.I did not get into skimmers and phosphate removal,CA reactors,and so on, but suffice it to say I aim to provide an optimum skimmer(probably an octopus at this point), and utilize as many natural nutrient export methods as possible.
I also have experience with leopard wrasses and other marine fish that are considered expert and have kept a smaller and less intricate system in the past, so I am new to the current scene in the hobby, but not to the basic workings of keeping a thriving aquarium.I am not looking for comments on the experience level needed for the fish, b/c I am already aware of the specialized feeding and sensitivity of some of them.I would like to know, if there is something you feel I must know or may have overlooked in regards to combatibility or any tips you may have in regards to any of them.
If you have compared my current stock proposal with my last, you will notice I elminated tangs as part of the community.It seems they really are happier in larger set-ups and the potential for aggression led me to rethink my choices for larger display fish.


Please offer me any comments, suggestions, or potential for trouble. I would also like to hear feedback on anyone's experience with the mentioned species in regards to good behavior around corals and clams.I have done all of the reading I could find on these and guys and that is is how I have come to assemble the list.I feel it is best to find out what people who have kept them have to say.

Finally...on to the proposed list:

1 African flameback angel
1 pair of ocellaris clowns (maybe true percula instead)
3 azure or gold tailed demoiselle
3 firefish (maybe purple,but most likely the standard)
1 marginalis butterfly (or maybe a copperbanded)
3 leopard wrasse (1 male and 2 females)
1 pair of McCosker's flasher wrasse
1 green mandarin
1 strawberry or magenta gramma
1 splendid dottyback (Allen's or sunrise as an alternative)
1 bicolor blenny (midas or tailspot as alternative)
1 orange spotted shrimp goby (long ray as alternative)
7 black bar or orange line chromis (green as a last resort)
1 Red Sea regal angel
1 Rainford's goby
1 Twin spot goby
 
not meaning to spoil your party but...

1. that's about 2x too many fish for a 125 reef... if it were a 300g it might be "ok" - but it would still be high. If you do manage to get that many fish in, you will want a BIG skimmer or fuge to export all the food/waste from the bioload.

2. your wrasses/gobies/grammas/pseudochromis will literally kill each other. To many of all of them - pick just 2. Example, your firefish will kill each other until 1 is left (they aren't really a schooling fish long term). Your remaining one will be killed by the dottyback or gramma which are much meaner... and of those, 1 will likely kill the other or there will be constant fighting since the tank is so small (yes 125 is big... but it's not "that" big)

3. your mandarin might not make it... to many other fish also eating pods

not all of my comments may be 100% correct based on other's experiences but in my opinion... it's just too much for a 125.
 
I somewhat agree with Chrissreef, you will end up with one flameback angel and one pair of clowns if you add all of those similar species fish. I only have one neon dottyback and just that one alone chases my chromis and my anthias around. You have to remember that most of these fish will be literally fighting for the "limited/same" food source and hiding/sleeping space. Also make sure that you ask that these fish be fed in front of you at LFS so that you can see which are eating prepared foods.
 
also, grammas/dottybacks will likely fight with your wrasses.

i think pick 10 fish tops... i have a 300g and am planning 27 fish (granted 15-10 are schooling cardinals) and even then, many (and in some ways, myself included) think 27 is to many so I'm still thinking about my list as well.

your tank is 72", with 29 fish in your list, that's 1 fish per 2.48 inches. fish territories are generally 12-24" each for small fish.
 
I am not confrontational, so please don't take this response as such.
In the past, granted, I knew much less than I do now, I had 3 fire fish, 3 leopard, 1 flame angel, 1 strawberry gramma, 1 algae blenny, 1 mandarin, and one ocellaris clown, all in a 46 gallon bowfront :eek1 I also had thriving sps in the same timebomb...lol. Oh, and I had a seaclone skimmer and 2 skilters...lol. Now, I know that is insane now, but that was 7 years ago and I have since learned better. I think it worked, b/c the fish were similar, it meant that less food was needed to satisfy everyone and a large majority could subsist on 3 times a week feedings and graze the rock work in between.Everyone was well and happy for over 6 months unitl I moved and broke the tank down, so I must have had a miracle on my side.

It was my experience that the fire fish never fought, the gramma never bothered anyone, and the only bully was the sixlined wrasse and was removed, which is why he wasn'y mentioned above.
I do tend to like a lot of fish and usually I add a few and then thin down my wish list as I see them in the tank.I actually have what I call spacial dyslexia.I was diagnosed with a difficulty understanding and realating to sizes and relationships in imagined scenarios.It therfore, takes me seeing something to see that there is less room than there really is, but more often I underestimate sizes and dream up huge enclosures for my reptiles.

Well, lets look at this list and skim some off and see if it looks any better to you guys.I really do value your opinions and while I mentioned my previous experience, it does not mean I have my mind made up and will do as I please anyway...I am really trying to achieve a mixed reef with the look of lots of fish.Of course, I want my fish to be happy and healthy.

1 African flameback angel
1 pair of ocellaris clowns (maybe true percula instead)
3 azure or gold tailed demoiselle
3 firefish (maybe purple,but most likely the standard)
1 marginalis butterfly (or maybe a copperbanded)
3 leopard wrasse (1 male and 2 females)
1 pair of McCosker's flasher wrasse
1 green mandarin
1 strawberry or magenta gramma
1 splendid dottyback (Allen's or sunrise as an alternative)
1 bicolor blenny (midas or tailspot as alternative)
1 orange spotted shrimp goby (long ray as alternative)
7 black bar or orange line chromis (green as a last resort)
1 Red Sea regal angel
1 Rainford's goby
1 Twin spot goby



Take away the rainfords goby, the splendid dottyback,1 clown,the flameback angel,the 2 spotted goby,2 damsels, and the blenny.
That's 8 fish gone from the list.7 of those remaining are chromis and all but 2 are very small and leave a very small biological footprint.The chromis don't count as needing a territory, b/c they are schoolers and will be fine with the open swimming room I allowed in my layout. Now you have 15 fish besides the chromis and someone advised 10...I'd say that is not too far off and eliminates a lot of the feeding competition between the bottom dwellers.

I am missing from your suggestions who may be aggressive toward who.It was my impression that the damsels are the least aggressive of that genus and the chromis are peaceful.My prior experience with firefish contradicts what the books say, but lets say they are inclined to be aggressive towards one another, won't they spread out in a 125 or could I house a male with 2 females?Clowns I know can be nasty, but I was also under the impression preculas or false percs are generally peaceful.They gramma, I know can be bullies, but again, is this not one more peaceful and more inclined to attack only similar species?I think that my eliminating 2 damsels, I've elimiated any agression between that type and lessend it between thema nd the chromis, I think by removing the splendid dottyback, the magenta gramma will not have any similar species to contend with, and by eliminating one clown, that eliminates the potential for breeding and more aggression from them,and by removing some of the gobies and blennies, I have less food competition and turff wars on the substrate.This still does not give everone 24'' of territory,but neither would 10 fish, so I am looking to come close to that guideline as much as meet the needs for a peaceful community and a reasonable bioload.

If there is anything else that must go or any real problems left, besides maybe a slightly higher than normal bioload, I am still tweaking this for approval.Thanks everyone
 
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ok, edit it to say 1 clown
wrasses - i'm not sure how aggressive the leopards will be with the dottyback/gramma or flasher wrasse. i just don't have experience with them

firefish - "won't they spread out in a 125 or could I hous a male with 2 females"

Not necessarily. in my experience, they either school, or 1 kills the others over 3-6 months. I have no idea how to sex them - maybe you got lucky in your last setup?

gramma/dottyback is the biggest conflictors I see as they're just to similar.

other than that, the new list looks better =)
 
I have no experience either with some of these fish together in one tank.What makes it hard is that much of the available information does not say if flasher wrasses are inclined to be aggressive towards other wrasse, but with people keeping them in tanks with 2 different species coexisting, I am thinking they should be fine.

You mentioned the dottyback/gramma being a conflict and since I eliminated the dottyback, that should be fine then.

The firefish might just have to be tried and see what happens.Maybe by adding them all at the same time and going with the purple firefish, they will be easier to sex.

The new list sits well with me for now.I'll see what others have to say about it and put it here, so it is obvious what the new stock list entails.


New stock list

1 flase percula or true percula clown
1 azure or gold tailed demoiselle
3 firefish (1 male and 2 females)
1 marginalis or copperbanded butterfly
3 leopard wrasse (1 male and 2 females)
2 McCoskers' flasher wrasse (pair)
1 green mandarin
1 strawberry gramma
1 orange spotted goby
7 black bar or orange lined chromis
1 Red Sea regal angel
 
You should still trim that list down somewhat. The bio-load on your tank will be too high and the fish will have little space.
It is very unlikely that a mandarin will survive with 3 (or even 1) leopard wrasse in the same tank. The Leopards eat pods as do mandarins. Even with a decent sized fuge you will not be able to maintain the population which will be the mandarins main, sole, source of food.
The firefish will likely fight. If you had success before then you were fortunate.
Gramma's are very aggressive, particularly if they are in a crowded environment.
May I suggest

2 flase percula or true percula clown (much nicer in pairs)
2 firefish (1 male and 1 female) - add at the same time
1 marginalis or copperbanded butterfly
2 leopard wrasse (1m / 1f) OR 1 green mandarin
2 McCoskers' flasher wrasse (pair)
1 orange spotted goby
1 Red Sea Regal Angel

You can add some chromis later if you think the tank is settled and running as planned
 
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You won't be able to put a Copperband in with those fish. They really need an ample Zooplankton food source. They'd starve to death with the wrasse or mandarin present.

They are extremely difficult fish to keep, wouldn't advise one unless the tank was mature and you had no other zooplankton (pods) predators (mandarins, wrasse)
 
An additional note, I do plan to be culturing pods and the small shrimp available from Doc fosters as well as what the refugium will put out.

How about:
3 leopards
1 marginalis or copperbanded
1 red sea regal
1 demoiselle
1 orange spotted gobies
1 gramma
2 clowns
2 flashers
7 chromis
1 green mandarin

That's 13 fish + 7 chromis to equal 20 total.All are small, there are no fire fish to fight, only one damsel,the leopard wrasses will cruise all over and really have no territory,the clowns,damsels,and gramma all have plenty of room away from one another and everything should have room to get away from them, since they are the only three possible aggressors and the clowns should hang near the anenome most times anyway.Less fish over all (down by 10 from the original list),less competition for the same foods,more space between aggressors, still a nice display.Some folks were concerned about too many fish eating the same small crustaceans and that leading to starvation.Keep in mind that the leopards, firefish(no longer an issue),and butterfly also take prepared food and will not feed exclusivley on small organisms, this will leave more for the mandarin.There will be lots of live rock, the tank will be well cycled and the cultures in the fuge and additional cultures will be stable and productive, before the madarin or wrasses is/are added.

Does this list fit better?I find it so odd that I was so lucky with my set-up all that time ago.The gramma was almost never seen...was never mean to anything and the firefish schooled and never bothered one another.It was even open topped and no one jumped!!!You know what they say about ignorance...I would rather be blissless and educated...hence the conversation.;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12807606#post12807606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flashyleopard
Some folks were concerned about too many fish eating the same small crustaceans and that leading to starvation.Keep in mind that the leopards, firefish(no longer an issue),and butterfly also take prepared food and will not feed exclusivley on small organisms, this will leave more for the mandarin.
Click to expand...

IMO, you are living in a fairy tale if you think this is going to be the case. You can't tell a fish what it can and cannot eat. In between feedings you Wrasse, CBB and Mandarin will completely decimate your pod population.

I have 3 natural pod predators in my tank. 2 Bangaii Cardinal who hunt water-column (pelagic) pods. 1 Copperband who hunts substance/bottom-dwelling (benthric) pods. This is in a 12mnth 125g reef with 200lbs of pre-matured live rock from a 10yr old reef. Even with this and the huge abundance of zooplankton I have in my tank I won't consider adding a mandarin or wrasse because I know that even though my CBB gets well fed by me, for the other 23hrs-Sleeptime he is picking at live food from the rocks.

Your wrasse will decimate the live food source (esp 3). The mandarin and CBB will slowly starve to death. This is a very very common situation.

Edit: You angel, gobies, flashers and clowns will also eat pods.
 
Also, what about a trio of one male and 2 female bangai cardinals in place of the gramma and damsel.That would be 21 fish, but might make for a better mix.I prefer trios to pairs of most things as pairs are a human inclination and not really natural.People liek the idea of pairs, b/c we tend or are encouraged to form pairs....it's natural.Trios look more erratic and more natural IMO.It can't be done and is useless if it's at the expense of the fishs' health of course.
 
Trio of Bangaii doesn't work either. 2 Will pair and kill the third :)

This is why most fish are said to come in pairs, not because we want them to, but because they kill outsiders.

Edit: it's also nearly impossible to sex them :)
 
fyi, bangaii cardinal was red listed (aka, almost makes the endangered species list). "if" you get any, PLEASE make sure they were tank raised. 99% of the ones in stores aren't... pajama and blue cheek cardinals aren't endanged though =)

sorry if I or we sound so mean... we really don't mean to!!!
 
Is it just me or did mother nature design the prettiest and smallest fish to be the most aggressive, eat the most unavailable thing, be the most sensitive, and be the most difficult to aquire, just to stop aquarist from having nice display?:mixed:
I suppose a lecture of ''everybody play nice'', while they are in quarentine won't help either huh?:) I could do with a pair of bangai cardinals, instead of a trio, but then that would just add more fish to my apparently already too high stock list.I think I'll just have to add fish as I got and put the most territorial in last and see how things come together.Im all probability, I'll look at the tank and realize that it will look great without all of these fish.Some are just must haves for me, like the leopards....I love em and couldn't have a tank without em, the mandarin is one of those things I always like, but if one died in my tank, I'd give it up.I like the angels or butterflys...a couple of medium fish pull the scene together and make it more natural than just having all the nano types fish, that I usually focus on.

1 pair of banggai cadinals or a pair of firefish, if cardinals too aggressive
1 pair of clown
1 pair of flashers
3 leopards
1 Regal angelfish
3 yellow tailed demoiselles
1 orange spotted goby
5 chromis

This would probably be a nice display.I am reading the REEF AQUARIUM FISHES 500+ essesntial to know species and it is telling me that the damsels I want are peaceful.I also have Eric's coral book,and The Complete Book of the Marine Aquarium.I am basing my communitys on the descriptions in these books and what I read on the dealers sites.I have kept mandarins and leopards before, but not in this size tank, and not with larger fish.My goal is to have a very natural reef that icludes at least one medium sized (angel or butterfly) fish, a school of something,a couple of trios or pairs(one being the leopards), some activity on the sand bed, and then a few here and there type fish, such as damsels or other wrasses,grammas,or dottybacks.I am less set on the species and more of the look the combinations gives to the tank.If you have alternative species, that would probably help.The only real ones I am set on are the leopard, the butterfly or regal(one or the other, if not both), and the clown being either a pair or lone true percula or ocellaris.Other than that, I am open to suggestions about schoolers,''here and there'' fish,and sand bed or lower tank species.I appreciate the patience and information.I am really trying to take all considerations into account and create a great community display at the same time....don't give up on me!!!
:)
 
"Is it just me or did mother nature design the prettiest and smallest fish to be the most aggressive, eat the most unavailable thing, be the most sensitive, and be the most difficult to aquire, just to stop aquarist from having nice display?"

You mean like supermodels? jk =P

edit - I want an achilles tang and powder blue tang... yea, like that's going to happen =(
 
Your stock list is looking much better:)!

As you are probably aware, for the most part Regal Angels are not reef safe, although a few have had some luck.

I had two juvenile leopard wrasses and when they matured, the one that turned into a male chased the female horribly. Before I could get her out, she jumped down the overflow into the sump. FWIW.

Joyce
 
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