Pumps, Chiller, Turnover, and Circulation

[SkyReef]

I am building a new reef-aquarium setup, whose 4 relevant components for my question are:

• 80 Gallon Rimless Deep Blue Tank;
• Ecotech Vectra L1 Return Pump (can pump up to 3100 gph);
• Two Jabeo SW8 wave-maker, powerhead pumps (each pump can circulate up to 2100 gph, for a total potential circulation of 4200 gph); and
• JBJ Arctica 1/4 HP Chiller (with a flow-requirement range of 480-1920 gph).

I have read a lot about the gallons-per-hour theory of aquarium turnover and circulation (collectively "flow"). The debate on this topic has reportedly shifted over time, with the advent of more powerful powerhead pumps. The more modern approach urges one to set the tank turnover rate (water circulating between the sump and the display tank) to a more modest 5-7 times display-tank volume per hour, while obtaining most of the total flow through the circulation in the display tank, achieved by use of powerhead pumps, set at the rate of, say, 20-30 times display-tank volume per hour. But I also see that there is wide debate on the issue, and some aquarists simply say there is no one "right" answer to the question, and results will vary by the quality of total tank husbandry.

That being said, I propose the following setup for my new reef tank, which will have live rock, fish, SPS, LPS, and softies:

• First, I propose to have the Turnover Rate be ~6 x Display Tank Volume, or 480 gallons per hour, which is the minimum flow rate recommended for the JBJ Arctica Chiller;
• Second, I propose to run the output of my return from the sump to the chiller, with no T's--just straight to the chiller--and the output of the chiller back to the display tank, controlling the flow to the Chiller (and hence to the display tank) with the controller of Vortech L1, which is a DC pump, dialing it way back to produce a net flow to the display tank of 480 gals per hour;
• Third, I propose to install union valves for the pump and the chiller, but not any gate valves--on the theory that the return flow to the chiller (and hence to the display tank) can be precisely controlled via the Echotech Vectra controller, which makes obsolete the need to dial back the flow with manual gate valves; and
• Fourth, I will dial my Jabeo SW8 wave-maker, powerhead pumps to produce ~2400 gph/hour in the tank, or 30 times display-tank capacity.

Thus, my total flow will be 2880 gph:

• 480 gph (via turnover); plus
• 2400 gph (via circulation).

Will this work well? Do you have any recommendations for modifications or can I make obvious improvements to this plan? Your thoughts are most appreciated.

 

[mpderksen]

I ran from return-chiller-display on my 75 for several years. The loss of flow running through the chiller was a lot more than I expected.
Will you have an Apex? Their inline flow meters look very interesting.
When I moved to the 150, I opted for a separate 1500 Sicce pumps for the chiller. No reason to pay the electricity for a bigger pump to force water when the chiller only runs a small portion of the year.

 

[TangingOut]

I think the Vectra M1 will suit your needs better. Depending on your head loss, you might not be able to dial back the L1 enough. I did a quick search and haven't seen a gph range for the controller on either pump, just max gph.

 

[SkyReef]

I ran from return-chiller-display on my 75 for several years. The loss of flow running through the chiller was a lot more than I expected.
Will you have an Apex? Their inline flow meters look very interesting.
When I moved to the 150, I opted for a separate 1500 Sicce pumps for the chiller. No reason to pay the electricity for a bigger pump to force water when the chiller only runs a small portion of the year.

Thanks, mpderksen.

I'm not sure if your response means that you ran your return flow from your pump, to your chiller, to your display, or whether you avoided that setup; your response says you "ran from" that configuration.

In any event, in any chiller setup, water runs through a chiller continuously, without regard to whether the water is being chilled or not, at any given time. Chiller circulation has to be pumped somehow. Your suggestion that I might avoid incurring high energy costs, by using 2 pumps, rather than 1 pump, seems counterintuitive. Running two pumps is arguably more expensive. And if I used a dedicated, submersed pump just for the chiller, i.e., a second pump, won't that add heat to the water, making the chiller work a little bit harder?

 

[SkyReef]

I think the Vectra M1 will suit your needs better. Depending on your head loss, you might not be able to dial back the L1 enough. I did a quick search and haven't seen a gph range for the controller on either pump, just max gph.

Thanks, TangingOut.

I agree that the Vectra L1 pump is overkill for my 80-gallon build. The lower-powered, M1 model would definitely have sufficed. But I chose to buy the L1 model, knowing it was an over-build. I like overbuild.

These DC pumps claim to have "fully adjustable" flow rates, which I hope means a flow as low as 480 gph. It's "feed" mode can pump at a "treading-water" flow rate--practically zero gph--just enough positive flow to keep the water from siphoning back to the sump, during feeding times. That's much slower than I need for my flow.

So, if it is capable of going slower than I need periodically, I suspect it can pump continuously at 480 gph. If anyone knows the answer to this question, please weigh in here.

 

[mpderksen]

Pumps, Chiller, Turnover, and Circulation

Thanks, mpderksen.



I'm not sure if your response means that you ran your return flow from your pump, to your chiller, to your display, or whether you avoided that setup; your response says you "ran from" that configuration.



In any event, in any chiller setup, water runs through a chiller continuously, without regard to whether the water is being chilled or not, at any given time. Chiller circulation has to be pumped somehow. Your suggestion that I might avoid incurring high energy costs, by using 2 pumps, rather than 1 pump, seems counterintuitive. Running two pumps is arguably more expensive. And if I used a dedicated, submersed pump just for the chiller, i.e., a second pump, won't that add heat to the water, making the chiller work a little bit harder?

Let me clarify. In my 75, yes, the primary pump flowed through the chiller and then to the tank. When I went to the 150, I bought a dedicated chiller pump. It saves money and heat. Let me explain.
Because the restriction going through the chiller is significant, I had to get a bigger pump for the 75 than I would normally need for 5x turnover. In my example, I use a QuietOne 5000. The recommended pump for my chiller is the Sicce 1500. Since it runs a fraction of the total hours in a year, a QuietOne 3000 and the Sicce 1500 would be total of less energy and heat than running the 5000 year round.
Now, in my 150, I run the 5000 and the 1500, but again, the chiller runs only a few dozen minutes each day at most. To make sure water doesn't stagnate in the chiller, I have the Apex turn on that pump for 5 min each morning.
Is that helpful?

 

[SkyReef]

Let me clarify. In my 75, yes, the primary pump flowed through the chiller and then to the tank. When I went to the 150, I bought a dedicated chiller pump. It saves money and heat. Let me explain.
Because the restriction going through the chiller is significant, I had to get a bigger pump for the 75 than I would normally need for 5x turnover. In my example, I use a QuietOne 5000. The recommended pump for my chiller is the Sicce 1500. Since it runs a fraction of the total hours in a year, a QuietOne 3000 and the Sicce 1500 would be total of less energy and heat than running the 5000 year round.
Now, in my 150, I run the 5000 and the 1500, but again, the chiller runs only a few dozen minutes each day at most. To make sure water doesn't stagnate in the chiller, I have the Apex turn on that pump for 5 min each morning.
Is that helpful?

That is a helpful explanation. So what you're saying is that the chiller does not circulate water continuously because water is pumped through your chiller only periodically, as controlled by your Apex controller. The Apex controller is set to trigger the pump that circulates water through the chiller, when the Apex is told by your temperature probe that the temperature of your water is, say, 80 degrees. In your setup, you save money because the chiller pump runs less throughout the year, even though when it runs, you are using the same or more energy to run two pumps. But you also run your chiller once each day, without regard to whether the water needs cooling, according to a schedule programmed in your Apex, for maintenance purposes. I, too have an Apex controller. Interesting approach I'll have to consider. Thanks.

 

[mpderksen]

That is exactly right. Note that I use one outlet for the chiller and a second for the pump. They both get triggered if the temp goes above 79°. ONLY the pump goes on for the 5 minutes each morning. Happy to share my code if you like. Pretty straightforward though.
I have not had issues with shutting down the outlet based on the Apex temp probe. In my experience it alleviated a potential battle between the calibration of the heater and chiller.
I have not ordered the Apex flow monitor, and probably won't. But the bottom line is that I believe you will need a much more powerful pump to meet your primary return goals than it will cost you to run a second, smaller one on occasion.

Michael


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SkyReef]

That is exactly right. Note that I use one outlet for the chiller and a second for the pump. They both get triggered if the temp goes above 79°. ONLY the pump goes on for the 5 minutes each morning. Happy to share my code if you like. Pretty straightforward though.
I have not had issues with shutting down the outlet based on the Apex temp probe. In my experience it alleviated a potential battle between the calibration of the heater and chiller.
I have not ordered the Apex flow monitor, and probably won't. But the bottom line is that I believe you will need a much more powerful pump to meet your primary return goals than it will cost you to run a second, smaller one on occasion.

Michael


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, Michael.

If you're going to trigger both the circulation and cooling of water in your chiller only when your pump is triggered, at 79 degrees, why not join the electrical cords of the pump and chiller on a single, dedicated power strip, the outlet of which gets patched into the Apex power bar? That way you'd save the precious real estate of one Apex power-bar a/c outlet. Based on my experience, I need every precious, Apex-power-bar outlet I can get.

As for your triggering code, I suspect your Apex code is input using the "output configuration" screen, where you instruct Apex as follows: "On Temperature": 79.0; and "Off Temperature": 78.0? Something like that? Not a bad idea.

 

[mpderksen]

That's about it. Except I'm using Fusion from an iPad, so the interface is a bit different.
I have 2 EB8s, one at each end. So I have plenty of outlets so far. I like that I can kick on just the pump. I'm not sure of the long term effect of cycling the chiller itself that often for such a short period.

 

[BFG]

Skyreef , if you are able to , modify the chiller internal temperature probe to an external temperature probe and place this external probe in the sump . With this modification done , you are free to use any pump ( from within the max flowrate range ) . 2 advantage here ,

1) you would be free from the dreaded stop , start , stop operation as the chiller read the internal temperature of the chiller holding tank instead of the main tank temperature . Sometimes the flow rate is inadequate and the chilled water in the chiller gets chilled faster than the pump can push the water out , giving it a false reading and automatically deactivating the chiller . Within a minute or two , as the water turnover in the chiller start to increase the temperature in the chiller , the chiller , again restart its operation . The pump flow rate would not be the achilles heel in your tank setup . You are not penalised should you bought the wrong pump .

2) With the modification to an external temperature probe , placed in the sump , the water in the display tank is adequately chilled, as a whole , before reaching down to the sump . This situation will prevent the chiller from getting false temperature reading and will operate normally .

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

SkyReef,
Just installed an L1 & if I had known what I know now I would have gone with a different pump.
The manual states they run hot -- 250 gallons runs @ 80 - 83.5 with the AC @ 75 degrees.
I needed a heater with the old DC pump to stay above 77.
Food for thought.

 

[SkyReef]

Skyreef , if you are able to , modify the chiller internal temperature probe to an external temperature probe and place this external probe in the sump . With this modification done , you are free to use any pump ( from within the max flowrate range ) . 2 advantage here ,

1) you would be free from the dreaded stop , start , stop operation as the chiller read the internal temperature of the chiller holding tank instead of the main tank temperature . Sometimes the flow rate is inadequate and the chilled water in the chiller gets chilled faster than the pump can push the water out , giving it a false reading and automatically deactivating the chiller . Within a minute or two , as the water turnover in the chiller start to increase the temperature in the chiller , the chiller , again restart its operation . The pump flow rate would not be the achilles heel in your tank setup . You are not penalised should you bought the wrong pump .

2) With the modification to an external temperature probe , placed in the sump , the water in the display tank is adequately chilled, as a whole , before reaching down to the sump . This situation will prevent the chiller from getting false temperature reading and will operate normally .

Thanks, BFG. Helpful to know. I will be setting up the new chiller that is sitting in a box in the coming weeks. Hopefully, the JBJ chiller will have an external-probe feature that will allow the use of an external temperature probe. I have a temperature probe with my Apex that could drive the chiller.

 

[SkyReef]

SkyReef,
Just installed an L1 & if I had known what I know now I would have gone with a different pump.
The manual states they run hot -- 250 gallons runs @ 80 - 83.5 with the AC @ 75 degrees.
I needed a heater with the old DC pump to stay above 77.
Food for thought.

Thanks, Vinny. Wow, I will cross my fingers and hope the temperature doesn't burn up!