QT gone wrong

[brentj]

I've seen similar threads and read hundreds of QT and medication-related threads in preparation. But I'm off to a bad start with my QT experience, and fear for the lives of my fish before I get them to the (hopefully) safety of the 360g DT.

I'll gladly open myself up to criticism if it helps me change something to help the remaining fish.

The plan; QT a sortie of fish for 4 weeks to try for that elusive dream of an ich-free DT. A new build, wanted to start off right

10g and 20g aquariums with HOB biowheel marineland filters. Watched a cocktail shrimp turn to nasty smelly gel while ammonia spiked and dropped to 0 and Nitrite spiked, dropped to 0.2. stayed 0.2 for couple weeks. wouldn't go away. Ok, so maybe that's strike one. I've read that tale/debate on other threads where some say it has to be 0, some say nitrite at that level is not significant in saltwater (but is in freshwater)

Took the shrimp out a day or two before adding fish, did a couple daily 25% water changes to bring nitrates down. (don't know the # but not too high)

Air stone in each, on fairly low

Added fish.
10g: 2 helfrichi firefish and 2 clowns. each about 1" (ok firefish 1.5" skinny)
20g: assessor basslet, black cap basslet, kole tang and hippo. tangs about 2" others 1". and 1" flame hawk. maybe too much? but they look so tiny in that 20g long...

10g tank was fine for about a week, everyone eating mysis and flake. siphoned uneaten food, changed some water daily that way. added prazipro per directions, then cupramine over two days. (last night day 2) Everyone still eating tonight.

Both tanks bare bottom w pvc, few small live rock rubble from the seeding. I know they can absorb copper and can't go back in DT system. But copper dose measures ok so far.

20g tank: tangs and assessor added and ok and eating for 3-4 days. Then black cap and flame hawk added. eating day one. Day two prazipro. day 3, half dose cupramine. Next morning found black cap basslet dead against filter intake. added 2nd half dose cupramine. this morning, hippo was up against filter intake when I turned on lights but he could swim away. but wasn't quite right. Tonight; dead. assessor and kole tang ok, eating. flame hawk hopping from hiding place to another but maybe not eating since copper.

Both tanks have ammonia alert badges, Both test 0 ammonia both free and total, with seachem multitest and red sea kits. As I said, like .2 nitrite. Copper now tests .5 ppm. (was half that when black cap died). pH 8.2

Possible causes:

nitrite; after reading articles (particularly http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php ), evidence that the LD50 is oders of magnitude higher points away from nitrite for me. Though I'm sure some will jump on that. (and depending on the source, either side may be right I guess)

overstocking; 5 little fish in a 20g long. fed lightly, never measured any ammonia though. 2 different types of basslets; never saw them interact though. Though I was at work.

meds; prazipro and cupramine. seachem says not to do cupramine with "anything else" but many claim the combo is safe. no amquel etc used. Interesting the deaths happened right after doses one and two of cupramine.

Disease; I saw no distress before "the end". no lesions visible. Though surviving kole tang has one white spot on him today. more lymphocystis sized if I had to guess.

species sensitive to meds: ?

filter intake: doesn't feel like much suction to the touch. Assuming a healthy fish wouldn't get stuck (it has the supplied grate on it but no extra sponge or anything)

SO.... if anyone's read this far, thanks. But the big questions....
1) What killed them?
2) anything I can test to assess risk to others or change my procedure at this point? (and of course for next time what should have done differently in retrospect)

I know some disagree with meds if no disease is observed, but know many are successful in getting fish through a month alive.

Any helpful input appreciated. Thanks

 

[ca1ore]

Difficult to say with any certainty what killed them. Fish die, and it may have nothing to do with your QT approach. Hippos, particularly small ones, don't have a particularly good survival rate. Personally, I'd not mix meds, regardless of what anyone might say about having sucessfully done it. I also like to let any new fish settle in for at least a week before starting anything like copper. No egregious missteps though, so maybe just bad luck.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling medium for qt is necessary and extremely easy.

Try not to think of cycling the qt tank, but cycling the medium for the qt.

I cycle the medium for qt with little water. Generally with waste water after wc in dt.

I don't do any wc in the qt tank soon and often never for the entire qt.

When you start with new saltwater in qt, you do not need to worry about nitrate or po4.

After the medium has been robustly cycled in a small container, I rinse it with some qt water and then use in the qt tank. I cycle very well with quite a bit of ammonia from decay or a bottle of ammonia.

Nitrite should be zero. Low nitrite per se is not harmful but this indicates that nitrification is not robust.

 

[brentj]

Thanks for the input. No bad news today at least....

 

[ca1ore]

Futzing around with a smelly shrimp is more trouble than I'm willing to bear for my QT. Easy enough to seed bio media in the main display. I maintain a canister of it on my tank - probably enough to support 10 QT tanks. I'm never without some should it be required.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Futzing around with a smelly shrimp is more trouble than I'm willing to bear for my QT. Easy enough to seed bio media in the main display. I maintain a canister of it on my tank - probably enough to support 10 QT tanks. I'm never without some should it be required.

Say you are tasked to QT a 10 inch angel fish.

How would seeding bio media in DT help?

 

[ca1ore]

Say you are tasked to QT a 10 inch angel fish.

Well, I wouldn't buy a 10" angel (whole reef tank thing and all), but if I had to, I'd simply use a 75 gallon tank that I have sitting empty.

How would seeding bio media in DT help?

Because it's the bio-media that provides the bacterial filter - contribution from the actual glass tank is negligible. My display is cycled, obviously; thus the bio-media in the sump will become bacterially active in a few weeks. Upon moving an appropriate portion of that 'seeded' bio-media to whichever of my QTs is needed, that tank will then be cycled.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"My display is cycled, obviously; thus the bio-media in the sump will become bacterially active in a few weeks."

How active will it be? What will have happened in the "few weeks" while the bio-media is in the DT?

Would such bio-media support a 10 in angel fish in QT?

How would you know?

 

[ca1ore]

Are you kidding? :lol: reread the how to QT sticky, I think you're not grasping the concept.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Are you kidding? :lol: reread the how to QT sticky, I think you're not grasping the concept.

I am not kidding.

Can you explain what happens to the bio-media in the weeks after you have put it in the DT sump?

What happens?

If you think that a lot of bacteria will start of grow on it, please explain why?

Do you think that when the bioload in the DT has not changed much there will be great increase in bacteria just by one putting some bio-media into the system?

Will the bacteria population increase in an existing system of about constant bioload just by one adding more medium and waiting a few weeks?

 

[wooden_reefer]

If a ten inch angel is not realistic, consider this.

In an existing DT there are five 4-inch fish. Now you put the bio-media into the DT and just wait five weeks.

Now you take the bio-media out and put it in QT, and QT just one 4-inch fish.

Will this "seeded" bio-media process the ammonia from one 4-inch fish?

How would you find out?

How would you assess whether there will be enough bacteria to handle just one four inch fish?

 

[wooden_reefer]

If a ten inch angel is not realistic, consider this.

In an existing DT there are five 4-inch fish. Now you put the bio-media into the DT and just wait five weeks.

Now you take the bio-media out and put it in QT, and QT just one 4-inch fish.

Will this "seeded" bio-media process the ammonia from one 4-inch fish?

How would you find out?

How would you assess whether there will be enough bacteria to handle just one four inch fish?

In a more common situation like this, I tend to think that there will NOT be enough bacteria for the 4 inch fish.

And I tend also to think that such misconception has caused a lot of QT problems.

 

[ca1ore]

I am not kidding.

Can you explain what happens to the bio-media in the weeks after you have put it in the DT sump?

What happens?

If you think that a lot of bacteria will start of grow on it, please explain why?

Do you think that when the bioload in the DT has not changed much there will be great increase in bacteria just by one putting some bio-media into the system?

Will the bacteria population increase in an existing system of about constant bioload just by one adding more medium and waiting a few weeks?

Well, absent pulling out a microscope and actually counting bacterium, we are into the realm of assumptions aren't we! Your inference that seeding biomedia in a display is inadequate based on assumptions about bacterial growth also extends to cycling a QT from scratch - how do you know for sure that will be sufficient? The answer, obviously and in both cases, is that you don't, not for certain. Fortunately there is a way to empirically answer the question. I've been keeping a reservoir of seeded biomedia in a canister on my display for over a decade. In that time I've quarantined approximately 100 fish, give or take, representing 30-40 separate quarantine 'occasions' and have yet to have an ammonia or nitrite problem. So, it works! I don't doubt that cycling a QT from scratch would also work, I just think it's unnecessary.

 

[ca1ore]

If a ten inch angel is not realistic, consider this.

In an existing DT there are five 4-inch fish. Now you put the bio-media into the DT and just wait five weeks.

Now you take the bio-media out and put it in QT, and QT just one 4-inch fish.

Will this "seeded" bio-media process the ammonia from one 4-inch fish?

How would you find out?

How would you assess whether there will be enough bacteria to handle just one four inch fish?

First of all, I have a large tank, with 35 fish that are fed heavily. Whether adding additional biomedia increases the net number of bacterium, or simply 'redistributes' them across a wider available substrate, I cannot say, nobody can. But, clearly the biomedia does not remain sterile; ones nose can easily make that assessment. I remove as much biomedia as I think will be necessary based on the fish that will be going into QT (hardly an exact science, I grant you) and then simply observe, by using an ammonia alert, ammonia testing, and monitoring the condition of the fish. If the biomedia proved to be initially insufficient, one can do water changes, add an ammonia detoxifier, etc. Really not that complicated if one pays attention.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The idea of having to qt a 10 inch angel may seem unrealistic to some, but in fact it is virtually realistic.

I am referring to the situation when ich infestation has happened in a reef tank with many fish.

One has to allow the dt to fallow for 12 weeks, during which one has to support all the fish with large bioload.

Just seeding some biomedia is not going to work.

The use of an artificial source of ammonia to robustly cycle medium for qt is necessary.

Misconception of seeding and refusal or not knowing to use an artificial source of ammonia to cycle after seeding will not be effective in combating ich infestation of this type.

 

[ca1ore]

virtually realistic.

I think that's an oxymoron ....

I am referring to the situation when ich infestation has happened in a reef tank with many fish. One has to allow the dt to fallow for 12 weeks, during which one has to support all the fish with large bioload. Just seeding some biomedia is not going to work.

Ah, but now you have changed the 'rules'. Removing an entire fish population to HT (not QT, FWIW) is a somewhat different scenario.

The use of an artificial source of ammonia to robustly cycle medium for qt is necessary.

And the ich infected fish will, of course, be quite happy to endure for the weeks necessary to 'robustly' cycle the HT? Don't think that works.

In the event a large population of fish needs to be treated (a scenario I'm happy to report I've not had the pleasure of attempting because, in part, I QT all new fish .... though apparently with inadequately considered bio media ) I think you start with whatever seeded bio media you may have on hand, keep a close eye on HT water quality, feed sparingly, and let the bio-filter catch up with the bio-load.

Plenty of folks have had to do this, maybe start a new thread and ask the question.

 

[wooden_reefer]

First of all, I have a large tank, with 35 fish that are fed heavily. Whether adding additional biomedia increases the net number of bacterium, or simply 'redistributes' them across a wider available substrate, I cannot say, nobody can. But, clearly the biomedia does not remain sterile; ones nose can easily make that assessment. I remove as much biomedia as I think will be necessary based on the fish that will be going into QT (hardly an exact science, I grant you) and then simply observe, by using an ammonia alert, ammonia testing, and monitoring the condition of the fish. If the biomedia proved to be initially insufficient, one can do water changes, add an ammonia detoxifier, etc. Really not that complicated if one pays attention.

The chance of piggybacking on DT to cycle for use in QT succeeding depends on a few factors.

1. existing bioload in DT in comparison to the intended bioload in QT.

2. Where you place the biomedia in DT. If the biomedium is placed in the more O2 rich areas, then bacteria may start to switch to the bio-medium.

3. The size of the new bio-medium.

4. One can play the game of overfeeding for a while and then underfeeding for a while in DT. This helps but has side effects.


It is certain that the bio-media is not sterile and will have some bacteria, but whether there will be enough is uncertian, and often there will not be enough.

Generally, only when the bioload in DT is already high would such piggybacking be successful.

If ich has already broken out in DT and you need to support all your fish in QT while the DT fallows, piggyback cycling is completely useless and will lead to calamity.

Piggybacking cycling for QT is generally a bad idea, exceptions are few.

Cycling is very easy, don't take any chances.


A riddle for some is as follows.

One is tasked to stock ten fish in a 220 gal tank. The fish are 9 2 inch gobies and one ten-inch angel fish. Three gobies are already in DT with invertebrates. How can one do so?

The use of artificial ammonia to cycle separately outside the DT is often necessary, no alternative.

 

[brentj]

I replaced the black cap basslet after reducing the cupramine to 0.4.

And it died the next day.

The basslets were both very small. The second one had just arrived at the store that day. I'd have preferred to let him settle in non-copper water for a few days first but y QT tanks were already going.

I feel like a murderer; not going to add anything else to QT for now.... everything else is doing well, everyone eating.

Any particular sensitivity to cupramine with black cap basslets?

 

[ca1ore]

If ich has already broken out in DT and you need to support all your fish in QT while the DT fallows, piggyback cycling is completely useless and will lead to calamity. Piggybacking cycling for QT is generally a bad idea, exceptions are few. .

At the risk of repeating myself, which I hate to do, I would only observe that in the unfortunate event that a full tank of fish needed to be put into treatment, waiting the requisite time for a QT to properly cycle would almost certainly result in fish losses - maybe even more than managing ammonia if 'piggybacked' media proved initially insufficient. OK, I suppose one could maintain an active QT, ghost fed to the level required to maintain the full fish population (bit of a WAG), but really, who's OCD enough to actually do that.

Maintaining a reservoir of bio-media on my tank has worked enough times for small groups of new fish that I have no doubts it is effective - your conceptual arguments notwithstanding.

The other point worth noting is that with the availability of CP as a treatment for ich, the use of ammonia detoxifiers is no longer verboten in the way it was with copper.

But in all this, let's just agree to disagree. I think I'll just stick with what has worked for me for the last 15 years. :lol:

 

[ca1ore]

Any particular sensitivity to cupramine with black cap basslets?

Not that I have experienced, no; though very small specimens can certainly be delicate. I have actually moved away from cupramine as my go-to treatment for ich; I now use chloroquine phosphate (available from National Fish Pharmaceuticals). Tank transfer is probably the best method, but if like me your schedule precludes it, CP does seem easier on the fish (maybe wrasses excepted) and you can use things like prime with CP, where you cannot with cupramine.