QT - Kole tang and 2 clownfish

[WhiteTang]

Hi everyone!

After many times losing fish because of ICH and brook I decided to setup a QT.
My DT has been fallow from June. This means it has been without fish more than 3 months. I believe there should be no parasite present anymore.

So, to the point. My QT is a plastic box (food grade) that has a power filter with nothing but simple sponge, a heater, a thermometer and a plastic tube for hiding. Aeration is provided through the filter since it is spitting air with water from the nozzle.

The container holds exactly 20L of water. Inside are 2 small clownfish about 3cm long and a kole tang about 4cm long. All three fish are very small.

Since I have lost so many fish due to parasites like velvet and ICH (and no QT procedures) I decided to do a prophylactic cupramine treatment.

I know tha profylactic treatment is not "approved" by many but after reading a lot I decided to go through anyway to be 100% sure the fish will be parasite free when I put them in the DT.

This is what I have done:

Day1: I put the fish in the QT
Day2: I feed the fish. Clowns are eating. Kole is hiding but eating when Im not around. I know because I left my phone recording while I was away.
Day3: I feed and do an100% water change. Also I add 9 drops of cupramine. The bottle said 10 drops.
Day4: Clowns are eating. Kole is hiding but showing interest and coming out a bit.
Day5: I add another 9 drops of cupramine. After a few hours clowns become less active. Kole is hiding.
Today....Day6: I do a 100% water change and add 18 drops of cupramine inside the 20L QT. Clowns have lost appetite but swim casual around. Kole is hiding.
I just noticed that Kole is out of its hiding and just stands still on the bottom. He is vertical but just because he is against the side of the QT. Also his breathing is rapid! Clowns seem OK. No elaborate breathing. swimming around as they would.

I immediately take out 1/6 of the water and fill it with fresh water. NOT saltwater, just fresh water to drop salinity and dilute the copper concentration.

Unfortunately I do not have a copper test kit. I know I should have but how can I overdose if I follow the instructions precisely?
On the bottle it says 10 drops per 10Liters the first day and 10 more drops the 3rd day.
According to the instructions I should have dosed 20 drops by day 3. I only dosed 18 drops just to make sure I am not overdosing.

What could be wrong with the Tang? I have read that angels are sensitive to copper but not tangs. Also cupramine is supposed to be tolerated by fish at higher levels of what I dosed.

anyway. I just hope the kole makes it through.. I feel so sad right now
I can't stand the though losing another fish. I have lost many because of no QT.
Now that I have a QT will I lose them because of the treatment?
I mean COME ON! Is there no way to keep a fish alive?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

IME tangs can be sensitive to copper. Which is why I quit using it years ago and changed my protocol to include TT. Also you really need a test kit for the copper.

 

[snorvich]

Hi everyone!

After many times losing fish because of ICH and brook I decided to setup a QT.
My DT has been fallow from June. This means it has been without fish more than 3 months. I believe there should be no parasite present anymore.

true for most of them anyway.

So, to the point. My QT is a plastic box (food grade) that has a power filter with nothing but simple sponge, a heater, a thermometer and a plastic tube for hiding. Aeration is provided through the filter since it is spitting air with water from the nozzle.

The container holds exactly 20L of water. Inside are 2 small clownfish about 3cm long and a kole tang about 4cm long. All three fish are very small.

Since I have lost so many fish due to parasites like velvet and ICH (and no QT procedures) I decided to do a prophylactic cupramine treatment.

Not a good idea for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that you do not have a test kit and secondly because copper treatment is going to be longer than desirable since the back end of the cryptocaryon irritans life cycle is non-deterministic. And most importantly, because copper does not kill all parasites.

I know tha profylactic treatment is not "approved" by many but after reading a lot I decided to go through anyway to be 100% sure the fish will be parasite free when I put them in the DT.

I think you need to re-examine your thinking on how to quarantine.

This is what I have done:

Day1: I put the fish in the QT
Day2: I feed the fish. Clowns are eating. Kole is hiding but eating when Im not around. I know because I left my phone recording while I was away.
Day3: I feed and do an100% water change. Also I add 9 drops of cupramine. The bottle said 10 drops.
Day4: Clowns are eating. Kole is hiding but showing interest and coming out a bit.
Day5: I add another 9 drops of cupramine. After a few hours clowns become less active. Kole is hiding.
Today....Day6: I do a 100% water change and add 18 drops of cupramine inside the 20L QT. Clowns have lost appetite but swim casual around. Kole is hiding.
I just noticed that Kole is out of its hiding and just stands still on the bottom. He is vertical but just because he is against the side of the QT. Also his breathing is rapid! Clowns seem OK. No elaborate breathing. swimming around as they would.

I immediately take out 1/6 of the water and fill it with fresh water. NOT saltwater, just fresh water to drop salinity and dilute the copper concentration.

Unfortunately I do not have a copper test kit. I know I should have but how can I overdose if I follow the instructions precisely?
On the bottle it says 10 drops per 10Liters the first day and 10 more drops the 3rd day.
According to the instructions I should have dosed 20 drops by day 3. I only dosed 18 drops just to make sure I am not overdosing.

What could be wrong with the Tang? I have read that angels are sensitive to copper but not tangs. Also cupramine is supposed to be tolerated by fish at higher levels of what I dosed.

anyway. I just hope the kole makes it through.. I feel so sad right now
I can't stand the though losing another fish. I have lost many because of no QT.
Now that I have a QT will I lose them because of the treatment?
I mean COME ON! Is there no way to keep a fish alive?

 

[Deinonych]

IME tangs can be sensitive to copper. Which is why I quit using it years ago and changed my protocol to include TT. Also you really need a test kit for the copper.

+1

Without a test kit, there is no way to ensure you are maintaining a therapeutic dosage. Copper has a narrow range of effectiveness and tests should be performed daily at a minimum. IMO, copper is not a good medication due to the side effects and the difficulty in testing. I have also moved to TTM for crypto (ich) eradication as it is much more effective and less stressful on fish.

Also, I would stop doing 100% water changes. They are not necessary, and could be adding to the problem by causing wide swings in parameters, especially if the water is freshly mixed. Partial (20-30%) water changes are more appropriate, and only when needed.

Finally, it is absolutely possible to keep fish alive! You simply need to establish a sound quarantine protocol to ensure the long-term health of your fish. Personally, my quarantine protocol consists of 2x treatments with Prazipro 7 days apart, followed by TTM, then a 1-2 week period of observation. This eliminates the most common parasites (flukes and crypto) and provides a window to treat for other parasites if they appear.

 

[Duke4life]

Since copper has been brought up: is there ever a time when it should be used/is more effective for any diseases? (Just curious)

 

[snorvich]

Since copper has been brought up: is there ever a time when it should be used/is more effective for any diseases? (Just curious)

Short answer, no.

 

[WhiteTang]

+1

Without a test kit, there is no way to ensure you are maintaining a therapeutic dosage. Copper has a narrow range of effectiveness and tests should be performed daily at a minimum. IMO, copper is not a good medication due to the side effects and the difficulty in testing. I have also moved to TTM for crypto (ich) eradication as it is much more effective and less stressful on fish.
I just removed copper from the QT and all three fish are doing great! The tang stop the rapid breathing and got his color back. Clowns are also looking lively.
I will try the TTM.

Also, I would stop doing 100% water changes. They are not necessary, and could be adding to the problem by causing wide swings in parameters, especially if the water is freshly mixed. Partial (20-30%) water changes are more appropriate, and only when needed.
Isn't the TTM method a form of 100% water change? How can that be stressful to the fish? Given the fact that SG and temperature are matching!

Finally, it is absolutely possible to keep fish alive! You simply need to establish a sound quarantine protocol to ensure the long-term health of your fish. Personally, my quarantine protocol consists of 2x treatments with Prazipro 7 days apart, followed by TTM, then a 1-2 week period of observation. This eliminates the most common parasites (flukes and crypto) and provides a window to treat for other parasites if they appear.

I will do more research on the TTM method. I have already read a lot about it but I would appreciate if you could give me a link to your method.

 

[snorvich]

Tank Transfer protocol can be found here. General parasite sticky can be found here.

 

[WhiteTang]

Tank Transfer protocol can be found here. General parasite sticky can be found here.

Thank you.

I just wanted to say that the tang is doing much better. He is breathing normally and I caught him grazing around, even if there isn't anything to graze on. And also the clownfish are more interested in food again.

I suppose it was the cupramine.
Anyhow. i will just let them be in the QT and look for signs of parasites for the next 4 weeks. If ICH is present i will try the TTM. Off to buy extra stuff to perform TTM in case its needed.