QT of 2 fish same time question

[Gleason5+5]

Hi there, relatively new to the hobby... DT is a 125gal, been up close to 4 months, parameters well established, only a pair of clowns in so far. I have a 40 gal QT with a 2" purple tang and a 1" flame. Flame was introduced first and a few days later the tang was. Tang was from DD and I presume was QTd already. The flame developed a couple spots of ich after a few days, but both have now been in copper two weeks... ich spots gone away now, both fish eating well. I presumed I'd have to treat for 3 weeks at the recommended dose of Cupramine, but since the purple tang has been fine the whole time without any signs of infection would it be stupid to place it in the DT after 2 weeks of treatment as I was working under the presumption that since it was in the same tank as another fish with ich, both should be treated 3 wks?

 

[aquainas]

Yes continue the treatment for the full 3 weeks as Tangs are very susceptible to crypt and it would not be worth the risk. I run Cupramine for a full month with a 2 week observation period thereafter during which time I perform several water changes with DT water to acclimate the fish to it's parameters.
Nice fish BTW!

 

[Gleason5+5]

Wow, that tang is amazing... Cupramine will have been at 0.5 for 3 weeks come this weekend and it's eating like a champ... but last night I noticed a few white spots on it AGAIN. I feel so horrible for the flame.. I want the poor guy to come out and just get into the DT, but given I still see a few spots after almost 3 wks means a 4th week? Copper has to be bad at some point for these poor guys

 

[Saltwaternooby]

Make sure you test the concentration of copper as it precipitates out and does not become effective at a lower level. Also check the test kit to make sure it will check the copper correctly some only work on certain types ie ionized and the other one.

 

[Gleason5+5]

Cupramine's new, testing with Salifert kit, not expired, has been reliable, tests above 0.5 unlike Red Sea. Realized a while ago that API isn't very reliable. Levels test daily remain around 0.5. There's definitely a variation though as when I do significant water changes it'll drop to 0.25 or so before I start redosing to get back to 0.5.

 

[Chris27]

Sounds like the cycle just started over again, most likely during a water change where the copper concentration dropped. The free swimming stage is very short, so it's possible it made it through the treatment, I've seen it make it through cupramine before, even when dosed properly. Keep testing 2X daily and dose accordingly, when doing water changes, put copper in the make up water and bring it to concentration prior to doing the change. Raise the temp to 80F and wait another 3 weeks, you should be good to go.

 

[aquainas]

Sounds like the cycle just started over again, most likely during a water change where the copper concentration dropped. The free swimming stage is very short, so it's possible it made it through the treatment, I've seen it make it through cupramine before, even when dosed properly. Keep testing 2X daily and dose accordingly, when doing water changes, put copper in the make up water and bring it to concentration prior to doing the change. Raise the temp to 80F and wait another 3 weeks, you should be good to go.

Cupramine is a much more stable Copper medication, provided nothing calcareous exists in the QT...sand, rock etc (which I do not use nor recommend) the concentration is maintained in the interim between water changes. The idea of adding copper to the new saltwater is a good one however not necessary, as I am not aware of such biological metamorphosis occurring in the time it takes to siphon, replace water and re-dose.
I perform a 50% water change on my fish QT weekly siphoning out all detritus and fish waste, making it very simple to return the CU level to it's effective state.
Test as many times as required to hit the initial target level of 0.5ppm, then weekly thereafter with water changes. Top off with ro/di if necessary before replacing any saltwater (matched to QT parameters) to avoid drastic variations in salinity which can easily occur when changing that much water. It should be smooth sailing for the entire 4 week period if performed in this method as 1.) There is no substrate for the cysts to fall into, increasing the chances of removal through siphoning and 2.) No calcium carbonate based substances to disrupt the copper levels.
Always research the livestock you plan to treat to determine how sensitive they are to copper based treatments even though Cupramine is a very safe option IMO.

 

[aquainas]

Additionally raising the aquarium temperature has no effect whatsoever on the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[Jacob D]

Additionally raising the aquarium temperature has no effect whatsoever on the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans.

Temperature has been shown to effect the length of the lifecycle. Here is one documented report from the Univ. of Florida which includes this information.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164


Regarding the reappearance of Crypt it's possible that it came in on the flame (angel?). At the time you added the second fish, was your copper level lower than .5? (If not, consider yourself lucky that the fish didn't stress out!) It will take at least 2 weeks in full strength (~.5) concentration of Cupramine to erradicate the ich.

Batch QT isn't necessarily all bad, but it adding fish at different points in time complicates the process. You should reset the countdown for all fish after each new addition... and if running copper (or really, any medication) reduce the levels or completely remove it so new arrivals can be ramped up to the full strength of the medication.

 

[Orcrone]

Cupramine's new, testing with Salifert kit, not expired, has been reliable, tests above 0.5 unlike Red Sea. Realized a while ago that API isn't very reliable. Levels test daily remain around 0.5. There's definitely a variation though as when I do significant water changes it'll drop to 0.25 or so before I start redosing to get back to 0.5.

When I was treating my system for ich I mixed the Cupramine into the replacement water (0.2 ml/gallon) bringing it to 0.5 before adding to QT. In this way the copper stayed at 0.5 throughout the treatment.

 

[Chris27]

Additionally raising the aquarium temperature has no effect whatsoever on the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans.

While raising the temp may not speed up the lifecycle, it ensures that it doesn't slow down. There have been many experiments performed in the past proving that fact.

 

[Chris27]

Cupramine is a much more stable Copper medication, provided nothing calcareous exists in the QT...sand, rock etc (which I do not use nor recommend) the concentration is maintained in the interim between water changes. The idea of adding copper to the new saltwater is a good one however not necessary, as I am not aware of such biological metamorphosis occurring in the time it takes to siphon, replace water and re-dose.
I perform a 50% water change on my fish QT weekly siphoning out all detritus and fish waste, making it very simple to return the CU level to it's effective state.
Test as many times as required to hit the initial target level of 0.5ppm, then weekly thereafter with water changes. Top off with ro/di if necessary before replacing any saltwater (matched to QT parameters) to avoid drastic variations in salinity which can easily occur when changing that much water. It should be smooth sailing for the entire 4 week period if performed in this method as 1.) There is no substrate for the cysts to fall into, increasing the chances of removal through siphoning and 2.) No calcium carbonate based substances to disrupt the copper levels.
Always research the livestock you plan to treat to determine how sensitive they are to copper based treatments even though Cupramine is a very safe option IMO.

But what happens when you do a water change and don't immediately re-dose the copper, 24 hours is long enough for the parasite to hatch from the cyst and find it's host.....better to dose the make up water just to ensure that the copper concentration never drops during the treatment.

And FWIW, the fact that cupramine is more stable then ionic copper means that it is less reactive. Less reactive means that it's less harsh on the fish, but it's also less harsh on the parasite. Ionic copper dosed properly will address the parasite in about 16 days, but when using cupramine or a standard chelated copper it's safer to go a full 3-4 weeks just to be sure.