QT with Cupramine (preventative)

[MellowReefer]

There are so many different opinions on QT it makes it so frustrating. And I know I have to decide for myself what I feel comfortable with, no one else can decide for me. But if anyone can give their opinion on these questions I'd love to hear what the current consensus is on this forum.

For preventative ich QT using Cupramine (my method of choice):

1) Is reduced salinity (1.019-1.020) really helpful speeding up ich's life cycle? I read on wetwebmedia and heard from two LFS owners, and just wondering if you all do this. It's extra work to gradually bring them back to 1.025 and I wonder if I'm wasting my time if it doesn't really help. I keep at 80 degrees to hopefully shorten the life cycle, but that's no extra effort (just electricity).

2) How long to use the Cupramine? I have heard 2 weeks all the way up to 8 weeks. Can Cupramine kill the ich when it drops off the fish? Or only when it comes out of hibernation? If the former is true, then how could 2 weeks be effective if they say it can hibernate up to 28 days? I'm okay with 99% certainty, I just don't want to stress the fish any longer if I don't need to.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Neither a slightly lower SG or raising the temp do much/anything to speed up the ich life cycle. The higher temp is a FW ich thing. I use Cupramine for 4 weeks at .35-.40 ppm (not the .50 ppm on the bottle). and take several days to get up to that strength. This differs from the directions, but SeaChem has given their blessing.

 

[wooden_reefer]

There is no doubt (why should there be) that higher temp does speed up the life cycle of ich. Ich has to be unique for this not to be true. It may not be the key, but certainly a factor. I will be really surprised if temperature has no impact. Has to have some impact.

I use straight copper and allow the concentration to vary, 0.3 to 0.15 ppm metalic.

I go at least ten weeks sometimes 12 or more if I just don't feel like doing anything quickly. I need to do no WC or anything much so I tend to wait and QT for a long time.

I won't argue against eight weeks, or even six weeks, just that I do at least 10 weeks as it is easy for me to wait, as I need to do almost nothing during QT.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I prefer to QT at slightly higher temp, say 80F, as I believe immunity of vertebrate animals tend to function better at top half of the comfort range.

I mean against bacterial and viral infection, not ich.

But when you treat against ich, you have to consider bacterial and viral at the same time.

Do I generally increase the temp of DT to shorten fallow period of ich? generally no.

 

[MellowReefer]

I am also a very patient person and don't mind waiting. Right now I have a foxface who seems very stressed so I want to move him to the DT as soon as possible.

I also have taken 5 days to get to full treatment strength (but I only use .4 concentration).

I guess if the higher temp doesn't hurt, why not?

So no one else has heard about the lowered salinity helping? Then I might as well keep them at full salinity.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I am also a very patient person and don't mind waiting. Right now I have a foxface who seems very stressed so I want to move him to the DT as soon as possible.

I also have taken 5 days to get to full treatment strength (but I only use .4 concentration).

I guess if the higher temp doesn't hurt, why not?

So no one else has heard about the lowered salinity helping? Then I might as well keep them at full salinity.

A properly set up QT should not be a a source of stress for any fish.

 

[Mrscribbled]

I am also a very patient person and don't mind waiting. Right now I have a foxface who seems very stressed so I want to move him to the DT as soon as possible.

I also have taken 5 days to get to full treatment strength (but I only use .4 concentration).

I guess if the higher temp doesn't hurt, why not?

So no one else has heard about the lowered salinity helping? Then I might as well keep them at full salinity.

Fox face are one fish that commonly do appear stressed in a qt, none the less don't rush it and cut it short.

 

[MellowReefer]

This is my second foxface so I’m really worried. My first one, a Magnificent, was a little stressed in 6 weeks of QT but he looked really healthy. Then in the DT he paced the glass a lot and died two months later. Ate like a pig except his last few days and looked perfectly healthy. I was really sad for a whole week. It was a little on the larger side, so I wonder if when they’re older when caught they just don’t adapt to captivity as well.

I have about 6 large PVC pipes the foxface can hide in, and its in a 36” long tank. Not sure why it’s stressed. It seems to associate me with food but maybe also still afraid of me. Hopefully it will be okay. It’s almost been 4 weeks with the Cupramine, and almost 2 weeks before that so he’s ready. I was just wondering about the length of time needed for future fish that seem stressed in QT (hopefully they won’t be).

 

[MrTuskfish]

Fox face are one fish that commonly do appear stressed in a qt, none the less don't rush it and cut it short.

When I said no fish should be stressed in a QT; it only makes sense that I would post this on a thread that involved a fish that is stressed. I've never kept, or QT'd a FF---so maybe I learned something today. Any idea why these fish may be bothered by the QT?

It isn't unusual for a fish to react to copper; but I just lower the Cu and gradually raise it again and that usually works.

Because the majority of ich/QT questions on the forum come from beginners, I think we can offer a lot more info about QT than many hobbyists need, or can handle. That isn't necessarily bad or good; just an observation. Many of the folks posting in this section don't have any idea where ich comes from, why they need a QT, why ich needs to be eradicated (as opposed to "controlled'), etc. etc. Just getting the hobbyist to look at ich treatment choices and set up a QT is a major victory. This drivel isn't aimed at anyone, just an observation. Keeping ich treatment as simple as possible (without sacrificing results) for beginners is vital...just IMO & IME. There is excellent knowledge on this forum, just absorbing a little at a time is tough enough.

 

[MellowReefer]

I agree there is a lot of information for the new hobbyist to digest on QT and crypto/ich. I would say the majority of my time researching since I got back into this hobby a year and a half ago has been reading about it and it's one of the most confusing topics because there are so many different opinions.

I think the easiest QT for a newbie (or anyone) in MY opinion is Cupramine. I tried hypo and it's so hard to control the pH and I read how many times it doesn't work (user error or what who knows). Tank transfer is much more work and you need two tanks so that's way more intimidating for newbies (plus seems easy to stress out a fish if you don't know what you're doing). Once you get a QT established for Cupramine, water quality stays good, at least in my tank. They just need to be very careful when measuring. My advice is to measure both drops AND millileters (by dropping into a vial with ml on the side) before adding to the tank. Put the total in your vial, fill to the top with water, and then put in 1/5 the dose each day over 5 days. I haven't noticed stressed out fish with this method. The foxface looked fine with the Cupramine until the last few days, I just think he has had enough time in this boring small(ish) tank.

I will do 4 weeks since that seems to be the safe bet. I had also called Seachem with this question a while ago and they said I could do as long as 4 weeks if I wanted to be certain. But when asked about the instructions for 14 days they really didn't have a good answer for why it says that.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Hey Mr Tuskfish, ive housed several fox face over the years. From my observation weather in copper or not for some reason they just don't adapt well. I believe mostly due to their nature, if I'm making any sence? Out of all fishes they are one that will very noticably show it. Spines raised up, discoloration, and often are sluggish to take to eating. A while back I read through WWM and found many other cases were people were conscerned about their FF taking to quarantine conditions. I have found with this fish it is a must to have a few 4 inch pvc elbows and keep lights dim for the first week. Too long of copper treatment can mess up their stomach bacteria but as far as copper in general the stress factor I'd say no.

On another note, Naso tangs are also difficult to keep content in qt but I feel its more due to lack of swimming room. Both Naso and fox face are very thin after I put them through a quarantine process but afterwards rebound fast. Many hobbyists freak out about quarantine setups because the think its more stress, but actually if you think about what the fish has all gone through (collection, crammed in holding tanks, shipped across seas, crammed in holding tanks, shipped over night, then placed in a tank where people are constantly up close and tapping on the glass, then bagged up again) I think of qt as a months resort of rest and healing.

 

[wooden_reefer]

A properly set up QT should not be a a source of stress for any fish.

The small size of the QT can have mental stress on some fish that like to move around much.

As long as it feeds well I don't worry much.