Questions about Hypo in QT

[kamil5000]

Hi,

I have to start by saying that i have been keeping reef tanks for many years without any problems until recently; I got a new tang (and a Fox face) which i QT'd for two weeks under normal salinety for observation. After two weeks ithe two fish looked fine so i put them in the main tank - two days later - the tang was covered in white spot (cryptocrayon)!

i managed to get the tang out and back into QT tank - the other fish look fine (besides there is no chance of getting all the fish out without destroying the tank) - time will tell if they have been contaminated or not.

Now, i have read many threads about Hypo treatment annd QT and somethings remain unclear to me and hope to find some answers here:

1 - As a propoer QT and proactive procedure - should all fish be placed in QT at hypo (1.009) - regardless if they have an apparent disease or not? (remember my tang appeared fine until it was placed in the main tank)

2 - Why is it recommended to only run a QT tank when needed (i have kept mine going for years). Isn't it better to have an established filter rather than to risk a cycle each set-up. apart from the costs, what are the disadvantages of keeping the QT tank running continuousley? besides - even if the QT becomes contaminated - dosen't the low salinity kill all the infections and render it sterile?

3 - i understand that i need to watch the PH and avoid it slipping as the addition of fresh water decreases PH. i tested my fresh water and the PH is higher than my saltwater?? is that possible. Also is there a formual of how many grams of baking soda are needed to increase PH by x amount for y amount of gallons?

Thanks for all your input.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Two weeks isn't nearly long enough to keep fish in a QT. parasites, especially ich, may not show themselves during that period. I keep all fish for 6 weeks now. Your entire tank has ich now, not just the fish that show it. I'd read the ich stickies (at least the 1st page), once you understand the ich life-cycle; my post will make sense. The only way to get rid of ich now it to put all fish in the QT, treat them, and leave the DT fishless for 10+ weeks. I'll leave the hypo questions to others, I just don't trust that method anymore.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Hi,

I have to start by saying that i have been keeping reef tanks for many years without any problems until recently; I got a new tang (and a Fox face) which i QT'd for two weeks under normal salinety for observation. After two weeks ithe two fish looked fine so i put them in the main tank - two days later - the tang was covered in white spot (cryptocrayon)!

i managed to get the tang out and back into QT tank - the other fish look fine (besides there is no chance of getting all the fish out without destroying the tank) - time will tell if they have been contaminated or not.

Now, i have read many threads about Hypo treatment annd QT and somethings remain unclear to me and hope to find some answers here:

1 - As a propoer QT and proactive procedure - should all fish be placed in QT at hypo (1.009) - regardless if they have an apparent disease or not? (remember my tang appeared fine until it was placed in the main tank)

2 - Why is it recommended to only run a QT tank when needed (i have kept mine going for years). Isn't it better to have an established filter rather than to risk a cycle each set-up. apart from the costs, what are the disadvantages of keeping the QT tank running continuousley? besides - even if the QT becomes contaminated - dosen't the low salinity kill all the infections and render it sterile?

3 - i understand that i need to watch the PH and avoid it slipping as the addition of fresh water decreases PH. i tested my fresh water and the PH is higher than my saltwater?? is that possible. Also is there a formual of how many grams of baking soda are needed to increase PH by x amount for y amount of gallons?

Thanks for all your input.

While you wait for confirmation of calamity, ASAP set up cycling for QT at the fastest rate. The tank for cycling can be just a plastic container a few gallons in capacity

The fastest cycling is in this setup and condition:

1. Drip wet/dry, not submerged.

Just drip water onto nylon bags filled with medium

2. High temperature, say 88-90F

3. Excellent oxygenation.

4. moderate salinity of say 1.018

5. good level of ammonia say 1-3 ppm.

It may take as little as two weeks to cycle, especially with 5% medium already mature.

If you do nothing now, when ALL your fish are affected, you will have nothing to support them during the eight weeks needed to ERADICATE ich.

Calamity for you is well in the offing.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"1 - As a propoer QT and proactive procedure - should all fish be placed in QT at hypo (1.009) - regardless if they have an apparent disease or not? (remember my tang appeared fine until it was placed in the main tank)"

ALL fish, definitely assume that ALL fish are affected and are carriers of ich. Assume that all non-fish live stock are not carriers but the water they come have ich. Non-fish should be isolated to allow ich to die off. ALL fish should be the direct target of eradication of ich.

"2 - Why is it recommended to only run a QT tank when needed (i have kept mine going for years). Isn't it better to have an established filter rather than to risk a cycle each set-up. apart from the costs, what are the disadvantages of keeping the QT tank running continuousley? besides - even if the QT becomes contaminated - dosen't the low salinity kill all the infections and render it sterile?"

I have QT setup standing by until several months after the LAST fish introduced. I always have cycled medium standing by in a compact manner. Nitrification bacteria can be kept alive very simply in a wet environment when fed with ammonia periodically.

 

[MrTuskfish]

An easy & foolproof way to cycle a QT: Use a good HOB filter, I prefer Aqua-Clear. The bigger, the better. Keep the HOB filter sponge & ceramic in a good flow area of your DT. Keep the media reasonably free of detritus. Downstream of a filter sock is great. After a few weeks, the media is seeded and will instantly cycle a QT, using the HOB. Keep extra media on hand and replace in the DT flow when you remove the seeded stuff. You can toss the QT media after use, its cheap. Toss the carbon that comes with the HOB too; cheap carbon is worthless anyhow and you don't need carbon in a QT. Carbon should never be used with any meds. Don't worry about nitrate in a QT, many folks go nuts when the see nitrate levels in a QT. Nitrate is harmles to fish; certainly at any level that will be reached in a QT. Also, keep some ammonia-neutralizer on hand in case something goes wrong. (Prime, AmmoLock, etc.-never use these products with copper.

 

[wooden_reefer]

An easy & foolproof way to cycle a QT: Use a good HOB filter, I prefer Aqua-Clear. The bigger, the better. Keep the HOB filter sponge & ceramic in a good flow area of your DT. Keep the media reasonably free of detritus. Downstream of a filter sock is great. After a few weeks, the media is seeded and will instantly cycle a QT, using the HOB. Keep extra media on hand and replace in the DT flow when you remove the seeded stuff. You can toss the QT media after use, its cheap. Toss the carbon that comes with the HOB too; cheap carbon is worthless anyhow and you don't need carbon in a QT. Carbon should never be used with any meds. Don't worry about nitrate in a QT, many folks go nuts when the see nitrate levels in a QT. Nitrate is harmles to fish; certainly at any level that will be reached in a QT. Also, keep some ammonia-neutralizer on hand in case something goes wrong. (Prime, AmmoLock, etc.-never use these products with copper.

To add:

You need a source of ammonia to cycle.

You want material to decay in the most aerobic manner to generate ammonia. The fastest way is to use a grinder to turn a small shrimp into milk. Next best is to chop it into bits. Whole shrimp takes very long to decompose and may not be as aerobic as possible.

This entirely submerged method takes much longer than drip wet/dry.

It will be at least three weeks even at 85F. Your fish may all be dead by then.

Hint: as long as nitrite has peaked, you can use the medium if you are under time pressure. Ammonia is much more toxic than nitrite. But you have to change 100% of the water to get rid of the bulk of the nitrite. I mean the slow generation of nitrite may not harm your fish too much.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Wet/dry is called a nitrate factory by some. It is not true.

But in this situation wet/dry does not only make cycling faster; when actually applied in QT wet/dry will process more ammonia per unit mass/volume of medium.

All you have to do is to pump water and "shower" it onto the medium such as crushed coral or crushed oyster shell, easiest when contained in stretched out nylon panty hose into shape of grapefruit or large orange.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Are we talking about quickly and easily being able to cycle a QT. At least I was.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Are we talking about quickly and easily being able to cycle a QT. At least I was.

yes, wet-dry dripping method is faster than submerged method, by about a week to ten days, I 'd say.

 

[MrTuskfish]

To add:

You need a source of ammonia to cycle.

You want material to decay in the most aerobic manner to generate ammonia. The fastest way is to use a grinder to turn a small shrimp into milk. Next best is to chop it into bits. Whole shrimp takes very long to decompose and may not be as aerobic as possible.

This entirely submerged method takes much longer than drip wet/dry.

It will be at least three weeks even at 85F. Your fish may all be dead by then.

Hint: as long as nitrite has peaked, you can use the medium if you are under time pressure. Ammonia is much more toxic than nitrite. But you have to change 100% of the water to get rid of the bulk of the nitrite. I mean the slow generation of nitrite may not harm your fish too much.

There is absolutely no need for all talk of ammonia. The QT IS cycled once the seeded media is put to use in the QT. Why would anyone want to add more ammonia?

The media that was seeding in a DT used ammonia to culture aerobic bacteria on the sponge (or other media). When the sponge was transferred to a QT, it continued to process ammonia and nitrite. You do not need to add any more ammonia to the QT, the fish there will keep the bacteria in the sponge multiplying. Well cultured bacteria in the the transferred media will also keep nitrite under control. The resulting nitrate is not an issue for fish. Nitrite is also not nearly as dangerous to SW fish as it is for FW. There are studies that question if nitrite is any question at all for SW fish.

 

[kamil5000]

Tks All.

A follow up complicate dquestion.

Since my display tank is now contaminated, an non of the fish are showing any signs of contamination (i am assuming that there imune system is taking care of them) and as i understand fish that survive an itch infestation build a strong immunity against that strain.

Does this mean that the ich will eventually die of at some point on it's own in the main tank as it is unable to reproduce because it is being resisted by the hosts?

And if after the tang in hypo is cured i place it back in the main tank (that is probably contaminted) will it have become immune to that strain of ich?

 

[b0bab0ey]

Since my display tank is now contaminated, an non of the fish are showing any signs of contamination (i am assuming that there imune system is taking care of them) and as i understand fish that survive an itch infestation build a strong immunity against that strain.

Does this mean that the ich will eventually die of at some point on it's own in the main tank as it is unable to reproduce because it is being resisted by the hosts?

And if after the tang in hypo is cured i place it back in the main tank (that is probably contaminted) will it have become immune to that strain of ich?

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Ich can live in the gills, or some fish will build up a temporary immunity. However, they are still carriers and can still infect other fish.

You can try to "manage" this problem mainly by feeding heavy or soaking the fish food in vitamin supplements to boost your fishes immune systems. But mostly likely, the Ich will never completely go away. All it will take is a "stressor event" like a prolonged power failure or a heater going haywire, and the problem will come back in full force and you'll have a nightmare on your hands.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I doubt if anyone really knows the what/when/why/etc. of ich immunity. The one thing that does seem to accepted is that any immunity is temporary. Like b0bab0ey said above, it is very unusual for ich to completely disappear. In addition to stressors bring ich back in huge numbers; sometimes the clock has just run out and you come home to a nightmare. I have a friend (a 1st rate reefer) at a University aqua-culture lab. She kept a reef tank in her office under almost lab-type conditions. Ich appeared about 10 months after she assumed it was gone. She also said the returning ich was extremely difficult to eradicate (in a QT) and she lost several fish. The DT was left fallow for 10+ weeks and hasn't seen ich since. This is just one anecdotal account; but her experience and credentials count. She is possibly the best SW hobbyist I have ever (personally) known.

 

[Mrscribbled]

If the tang was covered in ich in two days then you had ich in your system this whole time. Your fish just weren't showing the obvious symptoms. Btw wooden reefer and mr tuskfish. The easiest and fastest way in case of an emergency qt set up is to have a bottle of bio spira on hand.

 

[MrTuskfish]

If the tang was covered in ich in two days then you had ich in your system this whole time. Your fish just weren't showing the obvious symptoms. Btw wooden reefer and mr tuskfish. The easiest and fastest way in case of an emergency qt set up is to have a bottle of bio spira on hand.

Even if the Bio-Spira works, is isn't any faster than a pre-seeded filter sponge, or other media. The live bacteria in the media cycles instantly, nothing is faster than that. Wooden-Reefer isn't even on the topic, not that I can tell anyhow.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Even if the Bio-Spira works, is isn't any faster than a pre-seeded filter sponge, or other media. The live bacteria in the media cycles instantly, nothing is faster than that. Wooden-Reefer isn't even on the topic, not that I can tell anyhow.

:lolspin: just had to throw it out there. Was quite ammused by reefers method.

 

[MrTuskfish]

:lolspin: just had to throw it out there. Was quite ammused by reefers method.

Better than Leno or Letterman!

 

[wooden_reefer]

There is absolutely no need for all talk of ammonia. The QT IS cycled once the seeded media is put to use in the QT. Why would anyone want to add more ammonia?

The media that was seeding in a DT used ammonia to culture aerobic bacteria on the sponge (or other media). When the sponge was transferred to a QT, it continued to process ammonia and nitrite. You do not need to add any more ammonia to the QT, the fish there will keep the bacteria in the sponge multiplying. Well cultured bacteria in the the transferred media will also keep nitrite under control. The resulting nitrate is not an issue for fish. Nitrite is also not nearly as dangerous to SW fish as it is for FW. There are studies that question if nitrite is any question at all for SW fish.

Where is the seeded medium? If it is only "seeded", then indeed it needs ammonia to expand in population.

A medium is not just seeded or not seeded. If there is already enough nitrification bacteria than one does not need any ammonia.

It is a matter of quantitative consideration. If there is very low population of nitrification bacteria, even if balanced between nitrosonomas and nitrobacter, so there is no nitrite and ammonia, there may still be insufficient bacteria.

With ammonia the population of nitrification bacteria will increase.

In order to be sure that your medium can handle a load, you have to add ammonia the same as or exceeding the bioload will generate, IN ADVANCE. This is the whole point.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Where is the seeded medium? If it is only "seeded", then indeed it needs ammonia to expand in population.

A medium is not just seeded or not seeded. If there is already enough nitrification bacteria than one does not need any ammonia.

It is a matter of quantitative consideration. If there is very low population of nitrification bacteria, even if balanced between nitrosonomas and nitrobacter, so there is no nitrite and ammonia, there may still be insufficient bacteria.

With ammonia the population of nitrification bacteria will increase.

In order to be sure that your medium can handle a load, you have to add ammonia the same as or exceeding the bioload will generate, IN ADVANCE. This is the whole point.

If bio media is stored in a sump. Bacteria will populate it. When placed in a qt it will provide filtration. Bacteria will split in half every 24 hours in normal temperatures. This method is effective enough and easy.

 

[wooden_reefer]

If bio media is stored in a sump. Bacteria will populate it. When placed in a qt it will provide filtration. Bacteria will split in half every 24 hours in normal temperatures. This method is effective enough and easy.

Bacteria will only grow or split when there is food for them, in this case ammonia and nitrite.