quickie bangaii question

[David M]

Yes I know there is a lot of good info here already and I will search it out when I get time, but this is sort of urgent so please kick & flog me later . I have a friend with a male holding, he's on day 20. He wants to pull the male to save the babes, is this wise? Might he stress out and abort? I have bred them before but never tried moving one so I just don't know.

 

[Tuddy]

David

From my own experience my male did have live young in his mouth and was about to spit,

I did finally catch him but not before he did spit the young due to stress.
In my case the male had already lost 1 baby which I was able to catch, I only managed to catch another 2 a day later after he had spat them out again because of the stress when I caught him.

I would think that this would be a real possiblity in your friends case that the same will happen.

Hopefully Frank or someone with abit more experience can give you a few options, My cardinal is again carrying eggs and I too would like to hear some comments any capture technic's used.

Cheers Andrew

 

[jacob30]

I always catch the male around day 24 not earlier. There are no ill effects with this method. Once I catch him He will either spit the babies into the net or I put him in a small container and tap his jaw with a small stick or net and dunk a few times. Another option would be to put him in an isolation tank and remove him when he spits naturally. I have tried this and it caused him more stress in the long run so I do not do it anymore.

Day 20 would be a bit early I believe (they are basically yolks with a tail and mouth at that point).

 

[Coraldynamics]

Not to hijack the thread but-
I have pulled eggs as early as day 5 of gestation and moved them to an egg tumbler. This male typically spits on day 10 so I have to take them early.

He can then be free to fatten up again before the female loads him up again.

There is a thread in this forum for Baby Bangaii Video that I just put up today, it shows them on day 19 in the tumbler.

To catch him without too much stress- I place a clear specimen container in their tank on day two of holding. Then he is used to it when I am ready to catch him. Just a simple chase into the container and viola- no stress.

I then massage the jaw area for about 1 minute and poof- he spits the eggs.

He is placed back into the tank and the eggs are moved to the tumbler.

HTH

 

[jacob30]

That is always an option. I have not tried the tumbler yet. How successful is the hatch with a tumbler?

 

[Coraldynamics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7058474#post7058474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jacob30
That is always an option. I have not tried the tumbler yet. How successful is the hatch with a tumbler?

Success is "typically" better than allowing the male to hold to term. He will consume a few during the gestation period. Frank Marini has suggested waiting until day 12-14 to pull the eggs, that way you can be more sure that the eggs you pull are fertilized.

This male I have has not held to day 12 yet. (this is his 3rd attempt) I managed to get about 12 eggs once before, but lost all of them in the tumbler due to not enough flow I think. A fungus settled on them.

This time I started with about 24 eggs and still have about 20 that seem alive.

HTH

 

[jacob30]

I may try that one day. For now my male is averaging about 30 fry each time so it seems to be working with him. He does require about a month to recoup afterward.

Thanks,
Jacob

 

[Tuddy]

I have a female that interacts with 2 males I have I was hoping that this time around she would mate with the 2nd male, I hoped this because I had seen her shimmering next to this male,

Once my breeding tanks have cycled I am planning on testing to see if she will mate with the 2nd male by placing her with him after spawning with the 1st. Hope this makes sense. Anyway this could be an option for you Jacob.

Andrew

 

[David M]

When I had them they required a 40 gallon minimum tank to spawn, that is mostly why I gave up. Any of you guys having success in smaller tanks? I'd set some up if they will breed in 18T or 20H tanks. 10's would be ideal of course

 

[FMarini]

David-
you do not need a male banggai after day 12 w/ these fish, infact Stephens video suggest you really don't need a male past day 5. By day 14 most of the eggs are 2/3 developed and you can stress the male for him to spit out the fry, the fry still have yolk sacs and can live in a tumbler or breeders net w/ good flow until they need food (around day 20). The fry should be fine, they just require some kind & gentle handling
As for smaller tanks, I have read that someone bred these fish in a 20gal and now in a 12gal nano, but i can only guess that its gotta be tight in there, and not optimal.

 

[FMarini]

Andrew-
as I wrote in the 1997 reefs.org article, about these fish the female are promiscious and will bred w/ whatever male is available. So if you have 1 male carrying she will gladly find a new one to carry her next batch.
In the 96 breeders registry article i described a way of having 6 males and 2 females and passing around the females it worked very well.

Thats why i like this egg stripping idea now, once the males are holding -- strip the eggs, get the male back in th egame and raise the eggs in a tumbler

 

[Coraldynamics]

When I pulled the eggs, they were nothing but pale orange balls loosely held together. I think the move may have loosened the egg sack.

My time line is from when the male started holding - That is Day 1.

Stripped the eggs on day 5
Noticed eyes in the tumbler on day 7
Noticed fins and tails protruding from egg on day 16
Found fully formed fry on days 19 and 20
Eating newly hatched bbs (decapsulated) day 21

Two still have not swam out of the tumbler, though they are well formed and eating bbs. Time will tell!

 

[David M]

This is certainly interesting, I never would have thought of it. Still, the space required to breed them holds me back. I was in Hawaii last month and went to the Waikiki Aquarium (of course ), they had a tank full of adult bangaii's that seemed to get along quite well as a group. It was a land/ water biotope with the water area packed with eel grass or something similar. Long blades that went from the bottom right to the surface. My thought was that it really broke up the environment and possibly allowed the bangaii group to live in peace. My own attempt at letting a group of 12 siblings mature together in a 60 gallon tank was a failure, one dominant male emerged and killed a couple of the others. Maybe the eel grass idea has some merit? I would definately like to breed them again if I could do it either in smaller tanks or as a group in one large tank. I also have a group of nine blue streak cardinals, maybe they could all live in harmony

 

[Coraldynamics]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the problem with small tanks and bangaii breeding was that they would not hold to term. Not that they would not breed but the holding to term being the issue.

So stripping the eggs early would cure the problem, in my way of thinking anyway... make sense?

I am not sure if allowing them to hold longer than the 5 days would help the number of eggs or not. When I forced a spit there were about 24-26 eggs. I remember seeing some white ones...of the 24-26 I have 22 that hatched.

 

[David M]

Ok, now you are taxing my brain. It's not like I keep a breeders log or anything ( what, no smiley for "stupid" ? ) I am trying to remember if they bred at all or just wouldn't hold, I tried 20 gallon tanks. I just don't remember but I don't think they bred.

 

[Fredfish]

Stephen. Do you have a picture of your egg tumbler? It sounds like it is set up so the fry can exit on their own once they are sufficiently developed.

I have a couple of CB juveniles that I hope will turn out to be a pair and am looking into breeding methods.

Interesting read, this thread.

Fred

 

[Coraldynamics]

Hi Fred, I use the Mini Hatching Jar from Aquatic Eco Systems

Mini Hatching Jar

There is another thread in this forum that has a video of a recent hatch of bangaii. It is pictured at the front of the video and in use in several scenes afterward.

It does allow them to exit at their leasure, I still have one that has not decided to join it's siblings yet.

 

[Fredfish]

Thanks for the link Stephen. I'll download the video when I get a chance.

Fred

 

[FMarini]

Stephen-
your right on the problem w/ small tank. The fish will bred, but there were consistant issues w/ early termination. Stripping the eggs from the male does solve this. I agree, as to when to strip, I'm stil of the opinion that 10-12 days is plenty w/ very high success rates. Your data (althou and N=1) would suggests that even earlier is safe as well. Non fertile eggs will drop out in 3-5 days, so most of your 5 day old eggs should result in full-term fry

 

[Coraldynamics]

Cool, thanks again Frank! I was wondering if this batch may be the exception rather than the rule.

Well as luck would have it, that same pair started again today. So now the papa is holding again - this is day one. I might press my luck and pull again on day 5 and see what happens.

What are your opinions?