Can one use quinine in a full reef ? Ive started getting ich about 2 weeks ago and have been losing fish daily, had around 14 down to 3 thats alive and eating well.. unfortunatly i didnt have a seperate tank where i can keep them,and dosing copper is not a good thing in a full reef setup.. im thinking of starting a little shallow reef where i can keep new fish for now.... will i need to run my tank fishless for 10 weeks before introducing new fish ?
Quinine Sulphate treatment for ICH!
- Thread starter blennielove
- Start date
RBU1
Moving on Up
No you can't use it in a reef.....Set up a seperate tank and let it run for a while to build up some bacteria. Put your fish in it and treat them with copper for 4 weeks. Leave your main tank fallow for 12 weeks....
blennielove
New member
Day two after stopping 10 day QS treatment:
Replaced carbon filters and cycled bio-balls from 2 year old reef tanks. Added Purigen.
Nitrogen cycle is finally kicking in. Ammonia has dropped to 0.125 ppm, NO2 0.5, NO3 5, pH 8.4.
All fishes eating well, active. Some scratching behavior (makes me a little nervous), no signs of ich spots.
Temperature has been kept at 82 degrees steady this whole time, I'm planning on lowering it by a degree or so each day or two, back down to 78.
Lessons learned -
Always QT at least 4 weeks. I'll be using QS for 10 days to treat for ich.
Always have biological filtration ready for QT or HT by keeping either bio balls in DT sump, rubbles from DT for canister filter.
Remember what the wise reefers always say, "Nothing in this hobby happens fast!" So SLOW DOWN.
No "reef safe" ich treatment work! Don't waste time and money and lives.
Thanks to all who has been reading and writing!
Replaced carbon filters and cycled bio-balls from 2 year old reef tanks. Added Purigen.
Nitrogen cycle is finally kicking in. Ammonia has dropped to 0.125 ppm, NO2 0.5, NO3 5, pH 8.4.
All fishes eating well, active. Some scratching behavior (makes me a little nervous), no signs of ich spots.
Temperature has been kept at 82 degrees steady this whole time, I'm planning on lowering it by a degree or so each day or two, back down to 78.
Lessons learned -
Always QT at least 4 weeks. I'll be using QS for 10 days to treat for ich.
Always have biological filtration ready for QT or HT by keeping either bio balls in DT sump, rubbles from DT for canister filter.
Remember what the wise reefers always say, "Nothing in this hobby happens fast!" So SLOW DOWN.
No "reef safe" ich treatment work! Don't waste time and money and lives.
Thanks to all who has been reading and writing!
jjstecchino
New member
Blenny, glad to hear things are settling. I would believe some scratching would be ok especially considering what I saw on the pictures you posted.
As you can see it is so true that only bad things happen fast!
Resist the temptaton of putting your fish back on the DT too soon.
I would go for a full 10 weeks fallow.
Also since you have multiple tanks, consider to get rid of possible ich on those tanks as well. It would be much easier to do that in a contrlled fashion rather tan waiting for ich to strike again.
Good luck
Psionicdragon
New member
so blennie, any new updates?
jjstecchino
New member
I don't think there is anything wrong per se with extending the treatment over 10 days. Quinine seems to be very well tolerated by fish, so I dont think you will be doing any harm. Just 10 days seem to work for the majority of people who used quinine and prolonging the treatment may not afford any additional benefit.
sfboarders
New member
I did a QS treatment and noticed the ich spots going away after 2 days. I did a total of 10 days with 2 WC's and replenishing the amount of QS removed. I also did 1/8 tsp per 10 gallons with the cryptopro. I called Dr. Brian to confirm the correct amount to add as there are many different measurements you can use. I'd definitely use QS as an ich treatment for the future.
jjstecchino
New member
It would be very interesting to know if Quinine Sulphate has any detrimental effect on corals and other reef inabitants. I read a post time ago of somebody who in desperation used QS on his full reef and he did not report adverse effect, however he did not post any mid and long term follow-up.
Current reccomendation is NOT to use QS on a reef but rather use a separate treatment tank, however this recomendation stems from the fact that the effect of QS on corals and other reef animals is simply unknown.
The mechanism of action of QS on the protozoan Plasmodium Malariae is quite specialized. P malarie feeds on hemoglobin from the red blood cells producing hemozoin as a byproduct. QS seems to cause crystallization of hemozoin that at this point cannot be excreted and causes death of the parassite. Quinine is also effective against other blood feeding protozoa through the same mechanism of action. Because of this quinine does not disturb other organisms such as bacteria that do not feed on hemoglobin.
I am not sure once Cryptocaryon irritans is encysted what does it feed on, but it is probably blood if quinine is able to kill it (marine biologists more versed on this topic please come to the rescue and share your knowledge).
Due to the very pecialized mechanism of action requiting consumption of hemoglobin and production of hemozoin to be effective, QS may be safe on corals unless it exerts toxicity by other means.
I am not going to risk dosing QS on my display but I think it would be a very useful topic of research by the aquarium industry who has the resource and the economic interest to evaluate this medication in a controlled experimental setting studying the effect of diferent doses of QS on reef inhabitants.
If QS turns out to be reef safe it would become the uncontested drug of choice for ich treatment and just imagine the implications of being able to rid a DT of ich without QT, Hospital tanks etc. The economic implications for selling the drug would also be considerable.
Current reccomendation is NOT to use QS on a reef but rather use a separate treatment tank, however this recomendation stems from the fact that the effect of QS on corals and other reef animals is simply unknown.
The mechanism of action of QS on the protozoan Plasmodium Malariae is quite specialized. P malarie feeds on hemoglobin from the red blood cells producing hemozoin as a byproduct. QS seems to cause crystallization of hemozoin that at this point cannot be excreted and causes death of the parassite. Quinine is also effective against other blood feeding protozoa through the same mechanism of action. Because of this quinine does not disturb other organisms such as bacteria that do not feed on hemoglobin.
I am not sure once Cryptocaryon irritans is encysted what does it feed on, but it is probably blood if quinine is able to kill it (marine biologists more versed on this topic please come to the rescue and share your knowledge).
Due to the very pecialized mechanism of action requiting consumption of hemoglobin and production of hemozoin to be effective, QS may be safe on corals unless it exerts toxicity by other means.
I am not going to risk dosing QS on my display but I think it would be a very useful topic of research by the aquarium industry who has the resource and the economic interest to evaluate this medication in a controlled experimental setting studying the effect of diferent doses of QS on reef inhabitants.
If QS turns out to be reef safe it would become the uncontested drug of choice for ich treatment and just imagine the implications of being able to rid a DT of ich without QT, Hospital tanks etc. The economic implications for selling the drug would also be considerable.
sfboarders
New member
When I used QS in QT the nitrites and nitrates shot UP. The ammonia never increased. I had very good biological filtration. I think the nitrites and nitrates would end up stressing or killing all the other life in the DT if it were to be done. QS treatment should be done in QT.
Psionicdragon
New member
very detail and informative. Hopefully someone can find out if it is reef safe or not
Aquatope
New member
I have used both Copper Sulfate and quinine sulfate in Larval rearing tanks which have minimal filtration ( i.e. airstone), and no suspension of feed for duration of treatment. Very small blip in ammonia and nitrite but not higher than 0.25 to 1 ppm (aside, that is with high stocking density). Prime was always affective without any change to the pH for reducing the toxicity when it crept above 1. * Most medications will affect the biological to some degree, so monitoring is important. Well keep us posted with how things go Blennie .
JohnsonSBK
New member
havnt had very much experience in saltwater dieses thank god but have some in fresh water (koi), i would think general things would still apply like the fact that copper even the newer style is still very unforgiving and reacts differently a lot of times. also parasites are constantly evolving and evolving into resistant strains,. this makes my point that although copper may work fine now i think its a great idea to try new things for treating diseses.
im very interested to see how this treatment evolves and great work with the updates!
some other thoughts i had are increase temp as high as you think safe as i think this would have to increase metabalism and shorten life cycle. also some say that if lights are off then it makes it harder for parasite to find a host giving you more time for the quinine to kill it, my be BS but worth a shot.
id be interested to see how paracetic acid would work for this...
im very interested to see how this treatment evolves and great work with the updates!
some other thoughts i had are increase temp as high as you think safe as i think this would have to increase metabalism and shorten life cycle. also some say that if lights are off then it makes it harder for parasite to find a host giving you more time for the quinine to kill it, my be BS but worth a shot.
id be interested to see how paracetic acid would work for this...
blennielove
New member
Greetings to All!
I'm surprised to see this thread come back alive after so long.
I thought for quite some time to decide weather or not to write. I know that many of you will not be happy with me but then I decided to share my experience in hopes that others will not make my same mistake.
The quinine treatment was successful.
My fishes were without ich for one month before I did something foolish. I had time before my scheduled vacation to sit and happily watch them, but as many of you know, certain events and temptations will always throw a wrench into one's progress.
I saw a gorgeous Achilles Tang that is 6 inches long and has been at my LFS for five weeks. This guy/gal was beautiful - fat, gorgeous coloring, active. I spoke with one of the employees at the LFS and thought that this will be a "good" time to try adding since I've got four weeks left before I go on vacation to quarantine him...I must admit that I was feeling very good and behaving very stupid at the time. I brought him home and did a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip lasting 7+ minutes and put him in with my tangs. Why? So I can see if they all get along -and they did. Four gorgeous tangs swimming in my little 55 gallon tank...Three days later, I still haven't seen the Achilles eat. Three days after that I saw ich in the Achilles. No problem I thought, I still have plenty of quinine sulfate. I dosed for 7 days and the ich continues.
I was able to take the Achilles back to the LFS where he is still alive an well today.
I did a 30 gallon water change on the 55 gallon HT after scrubbing down the glass and PVC condo. I treated with quinine sulfate for 10 days. During this whole time. There was NO ich on my tangs. One week before my departure date. I dipped every fish with seperate temp/pH matched fresh water for 5-10 minutes and released them back to my DT which was fallow for 5 weeks.
Three days after they were in the DT, I noticed ich on the Powder Blue Tang, I waited to make sure that it was what it appears to be then I called my friend at the LFS who offered something that would make your cringe like I did - Formalin.
I know that this ich may be resistant to the quinine as it did not work on the Achilles, but at the same time I don't really know. Four days till departure and remembering that the fishes were starting to show stress in the 55 gallon HT when they were in there - I took his advise.
I removed all but two of my corals as the rock they were on was too big to transport as there were only about 20 zoanthids on one and two leathers on the other - these went to the LFS for baby sitting. I took out all my macroalgae, snails, hermits that I can find and placed them in three different tanks in my house - no, you silly, not my other DTs, just empty tanks I had.
I dosed two 25 mL of formalin every other day x 2, day before I left, I dosed another 30 mL with a 40 gallon water change 20 hours later. My pet sitter dosed a 25 mL formalin three days later and my buddy from the LFS dosed two 30 mL treatments each four days apart.
Two and a half weeks later, I came home to find all my fishes alive and well, active, eating, looking good. To my surprise, the zoanthids and leathers were alive and open as if nothing had happened. The water parameters stayed "good" according to my buddy from the LFS throughout. The only problem was...can you guess? The ich is still on the tangs.
I did a forty gallon water change and dosed 40 mL of formalin into my DT at night. I learned that the trophonts are always released between the hours of 2 AM and 9 AM so I've always dosed my medicines at night as it is the ONLY time when ich is susceptable - when they are free swimming and looking for fishes to attack.
The next day, my water was cloudy with a yellowish tinge and the floor with several dead bristle worms around an inch in length, so I waited for the formalin to stay in there for 24 hours then I did a 40 gallon water change and another the next day. I thought it strange that no bristle worms were lost with all the previous treatments so maybe I had underdosed previously. On the third day, I did another 40 gallon water change and dosed 35 mL of formalin. This time I found larger dead bristle worms largest was 6 inches. I did another treatment three days later and the ich continued to be on the tangs. I believed that there were new trophonts hatching daily in my tank and spreading the treatment out every three days was not enough so I started dosing every 48 hours. Today will be the fifth treatment and I've increased the formalin to 37 mL. I notice the ich on the fish is decreasing in number, so I think I might be finally getting somewhere.
So here are some observations:
1. I should not let my excitement or emotions come in the way of good fish keeping.
2. All the fishes that I've had are alive and well.
3. My zoanthids and leather coral are alive and they do open - strange?
4. My powder blue tang is as fat as any that I saw in the Maldives. My Atlantic Blue Tang grew 2 inches while I was gone. This also is surprising to me.
Before some of you send me some pretty nasty replies, please remember, what ever it is that you want to say to me I've already said it to myself. So please share your thoughts but hold the negativities at bay.
I didn't have to post this but I want to try to encourage others not to make the same mistake that I've made.
If some of you are wondering why I did not do copper, it is because I didn't want to put them in that 55 gallon HT.
With this, I hope that all is going well with you and yours,
Best wishes,
Blennie
I'm surprised to see this thread come back alive after so long.
I thought for quite some time to decide weather or not to write. I know that many of you will not be happy with me but then I decided to share my experience in hopes that others will not make my same mistake.
The quinine treatment was successful.
My fishes were without ich for one month before I did something foolish. I had time before my scheduled vacation to sit and happily watch them, but as many of you know, certain events and temptations will always throw a wrench into one's progress.
I saw a gorgeous Achilles Tang that is 6 inches long and has been at my LFS for five weeks. This guy/gal was beautiful - fat, gorgeous coloring, active. I spoke with one of the employees at the LFS and thought that this will be a "good" time to try adding since I've got four weeks left before I go on vacation to quarantine him...I must admit that I was feeling very good and behaving very stupid at the time. I brought him home and did a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip lasting 7+ minutes and put him in with my tangs. Why? So I can see if they all get along -and they did. Four gorgeous tangs swimming in my little 55 gallon tank...Three days later, I still haven't seen the Achilles eat. Three days after that I saw ich in the Achilles. No problem I thought, I still have plenty of quinine sulfate. I dosed for 7 days and the ich continues.
I was able to take the Achilles back to the LFS where he is still alive an well today.
I did a 30 gallon water change on the 55 gallon HT after scrubbing down the glass and PVC condo. I treated with quinine sulfate for 10 days. During this whole time. There was NO ich on my tangs. One week before my departure date. I dipped every fish with seperate temp/pH matched fresh water for 5-10 minutes and released them back to my DT which was fallow for 5 weeks.
Three days after they were in the DT, I noticed ich on the Powder Blue Tang, I waited to make sure that it was what it appears to be then I called my friend at the LFS who offered something that would make your cringe like I did - Formalin.
I know that this ich may be resistant to the quinine as it did not work on the Achilles, but at the same time I don't really know. Four days till departure and remembering that the fishes were starting to show stress in the 55 gallon HT when they were in there - I took his advise.
I removed all but two of my corals as the rock they were on was too big to transport as there were only about 20 zoanthids on one and two leathers on the other - these went to the LFS for baby sitting. I took out all my macroalgae, snails, hermits that I can find and placed them in three different tanks in my house - no, you silly, not my other DTs, just empty tanks I had.
I dosed two 25 mL of formalin every other day x 2, day before I left, I dosed another 30 mL with a 40 gallon water change 20 hours later. My pet sitter dosed a 25 mL formalin three days later and my buddy from the LFS dosed two 30 mL treatments each four days apart.
Two and a half weeks later, I came home to find all my fishes alive and well, active, eating, looking good. To my surprise, the zoanthids and leathers were alive and open as if nothing had happened. The water parameters stayed "good" according to my buddy from the LFS throughout. The only problem was...can you guess? The ich is still on the tangs.
I did a forty gallon water change and dosed 40 mL of formalin into my DT at night. I learned that the trophonts are always released between the hours of 2 AM and 9 AM so I've always dosed my medicines at night as it is the ONLY time when ich is susceptable - when they are free swimming and looking for fishes to attack.
The next day, my water was cloudy with a yellowish tinge and the floor with several dead bristle worms around an inch in length, so I waited for the formalin to stay in there for 24 hours then I did a 40 gallon water change and another the next day. I thought it strange that no bristle worms were lost with all the previous treatments so maybe I had underdosed previously. On the third day, I did another 40 gallon water change and dosed 35 mL of formalin. This time I found larger dead bristle worms largest was 6 inches. I did another treatment three days later and the ich continued to be on the tangs. I believed that there were new trophonts hatching daily in my tank and spreading the treatment out every three days was not enough so I started dosing every 48 hours. Today will be the fifth treatment and I've increased the formalin to 37 mL. I notice the ich on the fish is decreasing in number, so I think I might be finally getting somewhere.
So here are some observations:
1. I should not let my excitement or emotions come in the way of good fish keeping.
2. All the fishes that I've had are alive and well.
3. My zoanthids and leather coral are alive and they do open - strange?
4. My powder blue tang is as fat as any that I saw in the Maldives. My Atlantic Blue Tang grew 2 inches while I was gone. This also is surprising to me.
Before some of you send me some pretty nasty replies, please remember, what ever it is that you want to say to me I've already said it to myself. So please share your thoughts but hold the negativities at bay.
I didn't have to post this but I want to try to encourage others not to make the same mistake that I've made.
If some of you are wondering why I did not do copper, it is because I didn't want to put them in that 55 gallon HT.
With this, I hope that all is going well with you and yours,
Best wishes,
Blennie
Kieth71
New member
Well i am sorry you had to go through this all but ty for sharing.In regards to the start of this thread.I recently bought a atlantic blue tang juvenile.I got a great deal on him as he had obvious signs of ich and so i put him in his own qt and made sure he was eating.I then treated him with quinine sulfate.I did my normal routine then ran carbon for a week and a a water change.I thought i had been successful until i noticed one day signs of ich on the fish.He was still in qt so it wasnt the biggest deal in the world but i was starting to wonder about this great medication that i was useing.Was this a resistant form of ich to this medication?I didnt want to take a chance so i started cupramine which i have used on several occasions and did 4 weeks with the copper.The ich was gone but now i had to ask myself is the quinine sulfate reliable or did i do something wrong in my treatment.I can not tell for sure but it has shaken my confidence in this medication.-Kieth
blennielove
New member
Hi Keith,
I'm wondering if there is a new strain out there that is resistant to quinine. I know that in the writtings, quinine does NOT always work but work for some strains that is difficult to treat. When I contacted Dr. Brian he said that if quinine did not work in the seven days I treated that Achilles then most likely it is a resistant strain.
Everything I've read is that copper works. (period!)
Humm, this also makes me wonder about all these other treatments out there. This was one of the reasons why my friend at the LFS suggested formalin because it is another old treatment that has proven itself. But he was surprised to learn that I'm still dealing with this ich.
Keep us updated about your tang's progress.
Best wishes to you and your fishes!:spin1:
I'm wondering if there is a new strain out there that is resistant to quinine. I know that in the writtings, quinine does NOT always work but work for some strains that is difficult to treat. When I contacted Dr. Brian he said that if quinine did not work in the seven days I treated that Achilles then most likely it is a resistant strain.
Everything I've read is that copper works. (period!)
Humm, this also makes me wonder about all these other treatments out there. This was one of the reasons why my friend at the LFS suggested formalin because it is another old treatment that has proven itself. But he was surprised to learn that I'm still dealing with this ich.
Keep us updated about your tang's progress.
Best wishes to you and your fishes!:spin1:
Kieth71
New member
TY blennielove,The tang is doing well.The reason i like quinine so well is because it was quite frankly easy to administer and also very easy on the fish.Cupramine(copper) works very well but it needs constant testing and can be tough on some fish but i feel its the best of the lot when it comes to copper.I have used formalin only once for a pair of clownfish with brooks.I did this in a qt tank so i have no idea how it reacts in a display tank situation.I wish you the best in getting your fish healthy-Kieth
wooden_reefer
New member
I use straight copper in pulses and do few tests. I take advantage of the predictable change and some leeway in effective and safe copper level.
It is not that I believe it is as good as constant copper level, but it is easy and has been good enough for me for over 25 years. No ich for far.
When things are easy, one tends to do them consistently and for long durations. Perhaps this has been why it has worked for me all these years. Absolute min has been eight weeks, often 10-12 weeks in QT to eradicate ich.
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