Received wounded fish

[AquAsylum]

We received our fish this morning and they are all alive and really beautiful. However, the fairy wrasse has some kind of wound/condition on its right side, just behind its pectoral fin. We tried to take some pictures, and although they aren't perfectly clear, you can see an ulcerous like inflammation. If you look at the fish from above, its scales are sticking out. We have all of the fish in quarantine and I am treating with melafix and praziquantel. I don’t think this is a parasite/worm, as it looks more like a stab or wound that has become irritated. Just in case, I was wondering if you have anyone who could look at it and give an opinion. Thanks.

 

[dfs/la2]

AquAsylum,

Thank you for your post. We apologize for the condition the Fairy Wrasse arrived. After viewing the photos you have provided us with, we have come to the conclusion the Wrasse has an ulcerous wound. Keeping the fish quarantined and treating with MelaFix is the ideal treatment. If you could please contact our Live Aquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via e-mail at customerservice@liveaquaria.com with your order number we would be able to document your file.


Jessica H.
Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
Live Aquaria

 

[AquAsylum]

Update: Very displeased with service, wounded fish shipped

Update: Very displeased with service, wounded fish shipped

Below is the text of my recent correspondence with liveaquaria customer service. They are only offering to refund me the cost of a fish that was sent to me with a wound- not a latent bacterial or parasitic infection, but a puncture that has now ended the fish's life. I know the policy about guaranteeing arrival and offering a refund if a fish doesn't survive the refund period. However, in this case, that (a refund) simply isn't good enough. The problem with this fish was not caused by nature; it was caused by poor handling and could have been prevented. At the very least, you could have prevented sending a wounded fish to a customer. I will not be satisfied unless and until I get what I paid for, which is a healthy fish, sent to me.

A credit does me no good, as I will NOT buy from them if they cannot demonstrate some decency on this issue. We have spent thousands of dollars over the past few years shopping with DFS/liveaquaria and this treatment will make me walk away, no questions asked. I would rather spend a little more in exchange for proper service.
______________________________
Dear Laura,

Thank you for your recent order with Live Aquaria. We apologize for the death of the Fairy Wrasse. We appreciate you contacting us right away so may compensate you for the loss. At this time we ask that you dispose of the remains as you see fit. We have placed a credit on file of $29.99 for the loss of the specimen. You may use this credit on your next purchase of any live aquatic specimen or pet supplies. Should you prefer this credit to be applied to your credit card or if you would like to contact us to discuss your credit, please call or email us at your earliest convenience. Thank you for choosing Drs. Foster and Smith for your live aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future.

Again we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our Live Aquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at customerservice@liveaquaria.com and we will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have. Sincerely,

Technical Support
Drs. Foster & Smith
mjs
We hope that you find this information beneficial. We employ some of the best people in the industry and want to be your source for all of your aquatic needs.

Drs. Foster & Smith


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-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Oct 16, 2006 4:03:01 PM
Subject: RE: Order Number: A2514185 (#8740-56902985-5336)

Here is the update- the fish has died. I am very upset about this. It was a beautiful fish and its condition should have been readily observable at the time it was packed for shipping. This was not a parasite or bacterial infection that could have been undetected. I am fully aware of your policies regarding a refund; however, I believe that in this case something more is warranted. I want your company to ship me another fish of this species, and in prime health.

 

[dfs/la2]

Dear Laura,

Thank you for your post. We have sent you a PM regarding your order.

If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our Live Aquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at customerservice@liveaquaria.com and we will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have.

Sincerely,

Michelle H.
Drs. Foster & Smith
Live Aquaria

 

[hahnmeister]

He he.. I have a credit 'on file' that I need to use as well... that is if they can even dig it up... it was from 2 years ago...lol.

 

[dfs/la2]

Hahnmeister

Thank you for your post. Our credits on file never expire. Please feel free to use your credit anytime at your convenience. If you have any further questions, you may contact our Customer Service at 800-562-7169.

Pat S.

Technical Support
Drs. Foster & Smith

 

[hahnmeister]

Hey thats pretty cool.


Hey Laura, just curious, what would make it right? I mean, a full refund on the fish is pretty good, and I dont know that you can get any better anywhere. It doesnt make sense that they should pay you more than the fish is worth if it dies... in that case I would order hundreds and kill them all for the credit!!! Just kidding, but really, I dont know what you are looking for here... what 'amount' would make things right? I mean, maybe if you get a botched shippment, maybe it would be a 'nice' thing for LA to give you a discount on your next purchase, like 15% or something like that... as a way of keeping your business for what should have been a preventable error (that I understand... getting a fish that isnt even looked over doesnt make me very confident either)... I could see that as sort of a 'goodwill gesture', but thats even above and beyond. Getting a full refund is pretty good FWIW. I remember getting in a box of inverts that was cold one time... things died... what do you expect?!?! My experiences with them since that (with others orders and the frag swap at their facility) have indicated that they have perhaps the best shipping and policy around for live arrival. It doesnt always mean things wont die though... not even your LFS can make sure of that... but thats the risk you take of buying online... you dont get to select everything in person. Even at that, there are plenty of things that kill fish w/o you seeing it. That thing could have died long after the 14 days, from an internal parasite, and then you would be screwed no matter what, and no in-person selection would have prevented it.

LA and I did get into a fight once about some clams though. It wasnt their fault, but I wasnt about to pay for 3 clams that UPS had kept in a freezer overnight because they were delaved a day on their 'overnight' plan. So I didnt see much choice but to claim they died. They didnt, but they werent 'ultra croceas' any more. Within months they all were dead. Months, so I wouldn't have been covered, and from splitting them open, I could see why... the near freezing caused their algae to die off slowly, and a parasitic infection rotted them inside out (looked under a microscope). The 3 clams that were sent to replace the 3 dead ones are still fine and living though.

The moral of the story... if it looks sick... kill it. Its better than nursing it and spending the money on treating it and it ends up dying weeks later. Most stuff I see come in right from an importer is sooo lively and healthy anyways... whats the point? I could have another one in days that isnt sick.

Maybe instead of a credit, are you asking LA to ship you another as a replacement? Is that it?

 

[dfs/la2]

Hahnmeister

Thank you for your post. We would never recommend destroying a specimen that appears to be not doing well. Many times when items are shipped, they exhibit symptoms from stress. Proper acclimation and time will help the specimen to recover. Should the specimen remain a concern, we would recommend a quarantine tank. Another very important consideration is conservation of all live specimens.

We base our Customer Service on a trust relationship between our customers and our company. We encourage you to contact us upon receipt of any order you may have concerns about. We will be happy to help you.

Pat S.

Technical Support
Drs. Foster & Smith

 

[aquaticvet1]

Pat,
All of these posts have some merit. We made a mistake and for that I am sorry. We need to correct our mistake to the satisfaction of the customer and no other solution is adequate.
Admit our mistake, apologize for it, correct it the best we can and strive to do better.
Please PM the customer and do whatever it takes to make things right.

Thank you, Race

 

[hahnmeister]

Hey, its Race himself!! Nice to see you. One question for you...

After seeing the coral facility in northern WI, I wonder... why cant people just show up and buy in person? I am serious about this... many in the Wisconsin Reef Society were drooling over your 'cherry picked/divers den' pieces, and I understand that some of those pieces are spoken for or 'works in progress', but how about an 'open house' where we can come and pick corals and things w/o having to ship? There were corals I remember seeing then that I cant remember what they were to order...lol.

LA, 'you've come a long way baby'...

 

[aquaticvet1]

I will not promise, but Kevin tells me that he is planning on allowing purchases from the facility during the 2007 Conference,-- and perhaps on other occasions. It is not designed to be open to the general public on a daily basis and would not meet state code to do so.
Even though I seem to get the credit, in reality, Kevin and the crew are the brains and expertise behind our success in the hobby. He and Steve design and manage the facility as far as the livestock operations are concerned.
I have been watching the posts here until Kevin returns from a "cherry picking" California trip. Thank goodness he is back tonight.
Hopefully you can make it up in June if not before.

Thanks again for all of your help--------Race

 

[hahnmeister]

You name the day that your 'doors are open', and Im driving up there ASAP with a wallet full...

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I feel Laura is being unrealistic. Puncture wounds that cause death are not ulcerous or inflammed. They are mechanical injuries that are fresh wounds. If the body reacts to such an event, that is what cause the ulcers and inflammation. I am of the opinion this fish did not die from wounds, but from other causes. Furthermore, any injury that is not easy and obvious to document with a photo is likely NOT going to kill a fish.

As usual, Drs. F+S did an absolutely commendable job in trying to satisfy the customer, but in this case, I think the customer is trying to take advantage of the business. Its a shame.

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, Live Aquaria does have a live arrival policy that extends to something like 14 days depending on the species, some shorter, some longer.

Perhaps its in Live Aquaria's best interests, and the aquarists, to also clarify that policy when it comes to arrivals that are not dead, but 'in trouble'. Like I said above, paying full price for something that arrives 'damaged' isnt really fair, but it doesnt qualify for the policy unless it dies within 14 days. This is a grey area that needs to be thought out. To send someone an injured critter (Live Aquaria's fault or not, its their responsibility), and then suggest they buy more meds or equipment to make it right isnt really fair either. Thats why I say above: when in doubt, kill it. I know this isnt fair to the critter, and not what LA intended for their policy, but the policy as is doesnt add much confidence for people who get sickly animals, dying or not.

 

[DFS/LA1]

Hahnmeister

Yes, there are gray areas within our policies that cannot be defined until the situation arises. Our standard 14-day Arrive Alive, Stay Alive guarantee covers fish loss and is one of the best guarantees in the industry. Our 100% satisfaction guarantee covers the customer’s overall experience and is why our customers keep coming back. If a customer receives an item that is not in perfect condition we want them to contact us and we will make sure that they are satisfied with the resolution.

Jaimie A
Assistant Manager of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster & Smith

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I cant disgaree with you more on that topic. Sick animals should be treated, not killed. Regardless of the monetary compensation. If the animal is untreatable, then, by all means, perhaps the best solution is euthanization. But to kill an animal so that you can collect a guarantee is unethical, in my book.

I would bet my house that if you called Dr F+S and told them you recieved a fish that was injured, they would not charge you for it. No questions asked. Live guarantee or not. They are that type of company. In fact, providing a suitable "proof", I can't imagine any other respectable online vendor wouldnt do the same.

I would suggest you consider the ethicality of the actions you suggest. I find it very disheartening to meet another person in this hobby who would kill an animal for financial purposes.

 

[hahnmeister]

I knew I would get that argument... about ethics that is... you must not go fishing much...

Im only going to say this once: Dont question my ethics. I know what you are saying, and I do understand where you are coming from, but this is an industry that kills most every fish that comes through it. Think about it. Fish are collected, and shipped, and many.. in fact... MOST... die at one point or another. Even ORA captive bred fish can die at the store, or in someones tank. If fish didnt die, there would be no continued business... duh. The ornamental fish industry relies on the mortality rate to a certain extent for repeat business.

Fish are harvested by the billions every year for food purposes, for me to kill and eat. I used to buy feeder fish by the hundreds every week to feed my predatory fish when I was into that.

Every fish I keep will die sooner or later, and maybe earlier than in the wild, do to being kept in close confines with other species, or from the Bis-2 Methyl coming out of the PVC plumbing that eventually shuts down a fish's endocrine system. Some fish may live longer, from lack of predation, and a better diet (or, may die from it), so in a way, things even out, barely. You still see Moorish Idol's for sale, and Threadfins, which have very high mortaility rates. You see whale sharks at the Atlanta Aquarium... dying after a year or two, or being considered a success if they live to 5-6 years in captivity, a fraction of their regular life span. And somehow its still viewed as being worth it... that somehow the challenge makes it ethical? Heck, how many mandarins and clownfish are brought home every year to meet their doom? Mandarins are bought by people because they are cheap and pretty, but often kept in tanks that lack the food they need... and so they slowly die. Clowns, and their 'dory' blue tangs are harvested as little fish that eventually die under the care of that 'finding nemo' fan that didnt know a blue tang needs a 6' tank or larger and phytoplankton... not algae. Live Aquaria still sells bumblebee snails as 'detrivores' and 'clean-up' decorative snails... even though they were reclassified as predatory whelks over 15 years ago! F&F/LA is selling a known predator as a detrivore, where is the ethics in that?

Truth is, this industry isnt about ethics, like it or not. What we are paying for is for the ability to keep that animal in our reef tanks... the experience. That experience, when it comes right down to it, doesnt hinge on what life I have in the tank, but what it looks like, and how it makes me feel. Thats what I am paying for. So if I get a fish that is missing parts, has a sore, or otherwise needs medical attention... its taking away from my experience, which should otherwise be a beautiful, active, trouble free fish swimming in my tank for me to enjoy. If you enjoy running the hospital tank for sickly fish... thats your choice.

But in this industry, and with catching fish in general, if I want to kill something, its my choice. I eat Sushi once a week... is that unethical because of the fish I have killed? What makes the life of the tuna or yellowtail snapper that I gut less important than that of the ornamental fish I have?

Sorry, but that 'ethics' argument doesnt go far with me. Otherwise I would find the very idea of importing live animals, keeping them in captivity... in a fashion nothing more serious than a 'hobby'... disturbing. Maybe I would also become a vegitarian and try to never kill anything.

We are humans... we are the largest predators on the face of the planet. Deal with it. How many fish have you killed since having your tank? How many times do you wish you could just turn back the clock on an ailing fish that died anyways, and thought to yourself that you should have just killed it in the beginning? But no, you bought more crappy meds, and endured the stress and wasted energy anyways to try to save it, and maybe it worked. But was it worth it? And I bet you just had a fish dinner too... didnt you?

 

[hahnmeister]

OTOH, it is true that LA does have that satisfaction policy, and they do go out of their way to try to make things right. Once, I had a shippment of live rock where 1/3 of it turned out to be nothing more than hardened sediment & mud. They gave me a credit. Im happy, and Fair is fair. I think they even tried to see if I wanted some more sent to me to replace the rock that was bunk.

I take back what I said about the 'grey area', I suppose the 100% satisfaction guarantee policy does cover that. Keep up the great work Live Aquaria! No complaints here...

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Hahnmeister:

I apologize for challenging your ethics. I personally believe ethics varies considerably from person to person, and nothing can change that. However, I COMPLETELY DISGAREE that ethics has no place in this hobby. If that were true, no one would care about conservation, suitability of fish per tank size, and so on. Ethics involves EVERY aspect of this hobby. Otherwise, we would keep nurse shark in 55 gallon tanks, and treat these animals as expendable.

Here is the big difference I see in your comments and my viewpoint. You brought up many scenarios in which fish in this hobby die INADVERTANTLY, or as a part of accepted husbandry (ie- feeder fish). Your original suggestion was to intentionally kill a potentially treatable fish for financial purposes. That is night and day. If you said these fish just die, or that you think they should be killed because they cant be cured, I would no have an issue. But you are claiming to kill the fish SOLELY TO COLLECT YOUR REFUND! That is what I think is improper.

Your argument of human consumption is a whole other matter. Ornamnetal fish are not purchased as food. And we are not talking about a mackeral or tuna someone bought from DR F +S. As a hobbyist, we operate under different principles than butchers or fisherman because of this. I will gladly discuss with you, but not in this forum. And just for your information, I havent touched any meat or animal products for 13 1/2 years.

If you would like to discuss this further, please email me at jmaneyapanda@msn.com.

 

[Reefing102]

Guys just stop the arguing, also notice how AA hasn't responded back yet