Red Bug/ parasite treatment questions in SPS dominated tank...

[TIMMYE]

Ok s here goes. I have a 210 Gallon tank with a 75 gallon sump/refuigum. This is a mixed tank that is mostly SPS with some LPS (Hammer's Brain's, Acan's & such), Softies ( mainly leathers), and a good mixture of zoo's. I have found red bugs on some acros and it even looks like they are on a Gold Mille colonie that RTN'd in 4 days. I have noticed my colors fading for the last 2 weeks or so. All params are good.

Fish are 1 YT, 1 Scopus Tang, 7 Blue Green Cromis, 1 Yellow Corris Wrasse, Six Line, Lawnmower Blenie, Oreange Spot Gobie, Purple Fire fish and Green Mandrain.


Now for the questions: Can you link me to some Interceptor links for read up. My search function in not working...go figure.

1.) So I am wondering if I should just pull all SPS and treat with Intercepto in my 29 Gallon QT tank? Or do I treat the whole tank?

2.) Can all corals take the interceptor if I treat the whole tank?

3.) What about fish saftey? Any of the above listed that will not take the interceptor?

This is my first time dealing with any pest so any advice on how to best deal with this would be great. TIA Tim

 

["Umm fish?"]

So I am wondering if I should just pull all SPS and treat with Intercepto in my 29 Gallon QT tank?

That's a really good idea. The drug kills pretty much all the small crustacean life in your tank. I'm not sure that it stops at the crustaceans, either.

I have an infestation. I pulled all of the corals once an treated, but did not get all of the copepods. I've just ignored them since because they really don't seem to bother my corals these days. I feed my corals really well and I guess the corals are able to deal with the parasites.

Here's the weirdest part. After watching the population rise for a while, it seems to now be on the decline. I took a look at one of my corals that used to be a red bug magnet and I only see a couple any more and I have no livestock at the moment that would predate on the copepod. I don't know why this decline seems to be happening.

But, I have not ever traded frags with anyone since I noticed this infestation and I would not. I am in the middle of moving the tank and will likely do another treeatment soon to get rid of the last of the little buggers.

 

[TIMMYE]

Anyone else?

 

[flyyyguy]

Just nuke the tank and get it over with.

Remove any crabs/shrimp that you want to save and follow the common Interceptor use procedures. Its a no brainer IMO.

 

["Umm fish?"]

It'll be a mighty large ammonia spike, 'cause there'll be a lot of dead creatures. And how much is it going to cost you to buy new micro- and just barely macrofauna?

 

[flyyyguy]

Ammonia spike??? From what??

If your tank is so fragile that using interceptor crashes it, then i doubt its healthy enough to keep sps in the first place.

Turn the skimmer back on after treatment and perform a water change if it makes you feel better. Although the water change part afterwards isnt even necessary.

Interceptor is a safe treatment to be used in your tank to erradicate redbugs. If only all pests were so easy to get rid of

Im not sure this is really a "advanced" topic. You can go to the sps forum and read up on the "dangers" of interceptor. You will find that there arent really any if you take reasonable precautions.

If you only have a few frags that are easily removable, then treating them in a qt tank may be the way to go, but if there is even a sliver of a chance that you will be leaving any tiny piece of acro behind in the tank, then treating out of the tank is pointless.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Red bugs are parasitic copepods. I have lots of copepods that aren't red bugs. It also kills them. Interceptor also kills amphipods, and pretty much all other crustaceans (maybe all). It also killed bristleworms and gastropods when I used it. Let's see, crustaceans, gastropods, and worms? Pretty much the entire lower end of the food chain, i.e., most of the life forms in the tank. Ample source for an ammonia spike. And you're killing most of the animals that'd help the bacteria break down the bodies.... Just 'cause you can't see 'em very well doesn't mean they aren't there.

Interceptor doesn't seem to hurt corals. I did lose a couple during treatment, but I think it was from salinity fluctuations in the small tank and not the treatment itself. So, I'll repeat. Interceptor doesn't seem to hurt corals. That's not the same thing as saying it's safe. Heck, it's a drug designed to kill things. And it's not even that discriminate of a drug, which is why it also works to kill red bugs, since it was designed to kill other stuff. Let's see:

Interceptor Flavor Tabs are used in dogs and puppies to Prevent Heartworm Disease, Control Adult Hookworm Infection, And Remove And Control Adult Roundworms And Whipworms.

But, heck, nuke your tank....


***********
This is a completely different point, but may I point out the financial incentives? It's sure a lot cheaper to get to a therapeutic dose in a 20gal. tank than in the 300gals. you have TIMMYE.

 

[flyyyguy]

If you want to get technical, I believe redbugs are actually a parasitic micro-amphipod

Ive never witnessed it kill any bristleworms, or any other visible worms nor have i heard of that. Not saying it wont kill some smaller worms, it very well may.

Dont forget the beef flavoring. My fish kinda like it.

Like i said, Timmy, if you can with 100% confidence remove every speck of acro from your tank and create a suitable enviroment for a couple weeks while you treat, then removal may be the answer. Very few tanks, especialy 300 gallon ones is that very easy to accomplish and all your treatments out of the tank will have been in vain

 

["Umm fish?"]

Tegastes acroporanus, originally discovered in the Marshall islands (copepoda: harpacticoida)

Anti-worm medication that doesn't kill worms. No wonder it's so hard to find anymore. I had to go to a rural vet to get it.

I think it's going to boil down to the fact that I think flyyyguy is giving you bad advice. He thinks I'm giving you bad advice. Do what you want to do.

But, do please read this: http://www.ericborneman.com/Tegastes-content/Tegastes index.html

And especially this: http://www.ericborneman.com/Tegastes-content/Research.html

And you might as well check this out, too: http://www.melevsreef.com/redbugs.html

Maybe even this: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transwiki:Red_acro_bug

And from this last:

The most likely side effect of this medication is that it will likely kill off most of the crustaceans in your aquarium, including all crabs, shrimps, mysis shrimp, and copepods. As mentioned, if you want to save any of your crustaceans you have to remove them before treatment. Also, if you have any fish or other animal that relies almost exclusively on micro-crustaceans for food, it may be better to evacuate them to another tank as this treatment will likely wipe out most of your micro-crustacean population.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Oh, and I did want to point this out:

Evidence exists that resistance to ectoparasiticides occurs, and the development of doramectin is an example of a product developed because of resistance. I have found many references to suggest that arthropods can become desensitized, resistant or immune to various pesticides or parasticides. This has important implications in the use of drugs and chemicals to treat Tegastes infestations. It is very important to make sure that any treatments impart a 100% kill rate using a given substance. If resistance genes are turned on or evolve, the treatments now available may soon become ineffective as the parasites are transferred between tanks. My most recent experience whereby dose levels that had previously effected a 100% kill rate and left some copepods alive may be an indication that some resistance is already developing.

If you do try to kill them, please do kill them all.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Here's the paper on the original species description, if you want to get technical:

Humes, Arthur G. 1981. A new species of Tegastes (Copepoda: Harpacticoida) associated with a scleractinian coral at Enewetak Atoll. Prco Biol Soc Wash 94(1): 254-263.

Abstract
The harpacticoid copepod Tegastes acroporanus, new species, is associated with the scleractinian coral Acropora florida (Dana) at Enewetak Atoll. Until now only one harpacticoid species, Tegastes georgei Marcus and Masry, 1970, from Stylophora and Pocillopora in the Gulf of Elat, has been known to be associated with hard corals. The two species of Tegastes from corals resemble each other in the form of leg 5 in the female, but differ in the nature of the setae of the exopod of leg 4 and in the degree of sexual dimorphism in the first antenna of the male.

 

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10457315#post10457315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"


I think it's going to boil down to the fact that I think flyyyguy is giving you bad advice. He thinks I'm giving you bad advice. Do what you want to do.
]

I dont think you are giving bad advice, i think you are giving silly advice based on your personal misconceptions of what you have read and your vast experience using interceptor one time, and it wasnt even in tank, it was out of tank like many of us do on a regular basis with new additions. Your "ammonia" spike theory, and having to replace all your microfauna clearly shows this. If you had ever used it in a complete running system you would know that while we may not know the complete effects, your system will come out of it apparently unphased.

You can quote all the scientific literature you want proving i dont know as much of the biology behind the bugs themselves, or at least didnt go to the effort of looking it up to quote as you did, but I can tell you I have used this stuff countless times in systems of my own and others, as well as played with different dip and qt methods and I know how it works.

Regardless of any of that, again, like i said, the important thing in deciding whether or not you treat in the tank, or outside of the tank, is how confident you are that you can remove 100% of all acros from the system. If you can, then treating outside the tank is a viable option, if there is any doubt to this, then treating in tank is the only solution, if you choose to take action at all.

Your link you provided to Melev simply shows how he went about treating one piece, and backs up the same theory i just mentioned if there is any doubt there could be acros remaining in the tank, then you risk infecting again what you just removed to treat.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Well, if you want to get technical, let's see, you insult the thread originator, making it seem like he used poor judgment posting here at all:

Im not sure this is really a "advanced" topic.

You try to discredit my argument by belittling my scientific knowlege:

If you want to get technical, I believe redbugs are actually a parasitic micro-amphipod

You then tell me my knowlege of the science doen't matter:

You can quote all the scientific literature you want

And now you attack my advice without attacking its merit at all, calling it:

silly

You argument boils down to: "Nothing bad has ever happened to me, therefore nothing bad will ever happen to you." And every time I point out reasons why something bad could happen, your response is: "Nothing bad has ever happened to me, therefore nothing bad will ever happen to you." Could you try for a new response? Please? I do like how you re-phrase it occasionally, though.

Are you going to pay for his crash if it goes down other than how you say? I didn't think so. I'm just offering the path of caution that kills as few of the animals (that we've said we'll be responsible for by getting into this hobby, by the way) as possible.

Your link you provided to Melev simply shows how he went about treating one piece, and backs up the same theory i just mentioned if there is any doubt there could be acros remaining in the tank, then you risk infecting again what you just removed to treat.

Do you really think that I can't see beyond my argument enough to offer advice in case he decides to do something other than what I think he should do? That would make me awfully small-minded....

And the quote about being sure to kill all the red bugs if you do try to kill them actually plays more to your argument than mine, if you'd bothered to read it. You're welcome.

While we're at it, though, I should really ask why you have such extensive experience bombing tanks with Interceptor? If you're going to bomb a display tank, shouldn't that be something that you do once?

I thought our discussion was though, flyyyguy, and I was pointing out places TIMMYE could go for more information. I think it can well be said that we've exhausted what useful advice we're going to give him.

And TIMMYE, I really should apologize to you, since this is moving away from giving advice and quickly sinking towards name-calling. Sorry.

 

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10458562#post10458562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"

While we're at it, though, I should really ask why you have such extensive experience bombing tanks with Interceptor? If you're going to bomb a display tank, shouldn't that be something that you do once?
.

Why?? Because i have actual first hand experience in this hobby, on many different systems my own and of others Ive built for people and helped people with, and I dont simply give advice based on things ive read and misunderstood so i can parrot back quotes and argue over things i in actuality have zero experience in dealing with.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10457094#post10457094 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
It'll be a mighty large ammonia spike, 'cause there'll be a lot of dead creatures. And how much is it going to cost you to buy new micro- and just barely macrofauna?

ROTFLMAO :lol: Care to elaborate on this statement a little more from your personal experience??

Im done here. You are silly Ummfish. And my using the word "silly" is being as polite as I can be.





I will just say one more time my only point in posting in this thread in the first place:

If you only have a few frags that are easily removable, then treating them in a qt tank may be the way to go, but if there is even a sliver of a chance that you will be leaving any tiny piece of acro behind in the tank, then treating out of the tank is pointless., It will not harm any of your corals, it will not harm any of your fish, it will kill all of your pods, crabs and shrimp, but the pods you want will rebound shortly.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Because i have actual first hand experience in this hobby, on many different systems my own and of others Ive built for people and helped people with

So you're saying that all of your vast experience never taught you the QT lesson? Fine, but bad husbandry, IMO. Please try to take a little better care of your animals. Not QTing once can be chalked up to gaining experience in the hobby. We've all done that. Not QTing multiple times, well.... Making the same mistakes multiple times doesn't qualify as "better" experience.

so i can parrot back quotes and argue over things i in actuality have zero experience in dealing with.

In implication, my experience watching animals die because of the Interceptor I administered was no experience at all? Whereas all of this vast fund of experience you have is so valuable? Why?

Care to elaborate on this statement a little more from your personal experience??

Sure. I administered Interceptor to a QT tank. I watched hitchiker animals die and fall to the bottom of the tank. I've looked at the list of what Interceptor is designed to kill. I know it's hard to imagine, but I do think it's reasonable to extend from my experience and from the knowledge I gained reading to the treating of a larger mass of water and a larger number of creatures. Is that more elaborate for you?

You are silly Ummfish.

As I said, sinking to name calling. I knew it was right around the corner. I'm not exactly sure why you feel the need to take this to a personal attack. I never did. Attack my ideas, fine. Please do. That's what a critical discussion is about. But let's please avoid acting like three-year-olds. No, you're silly. Infinity.

And yet, you never do seem to actually respond to my arguments. It's not an argument to stick your fingers in your ears and yell, "You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong."

By all means, TIMMYE, if you do go the QT route please get all of the Acros out of your tank. Seems pretty obvious. If you're going to treat Acros outside the tank, then they all need to be outside the tank. You might also consider keeping them outside your display tank for a while if possible, as the copepods will go and find whatever "slivers" are left and eat them. If you leave the tank fallow for a while, the red bugs inside the tank will exhaust what food is left and then die. That's really the whole point of treating outside the tank, is to give the copepods left inside the tank that are obligate Acropora parasites time to die without killing the rest of your small fauna. Apparantly, I didn't do a good enough job at this part of the treatment when I did it. Please learn from my mistake without having to accumulate vast amounts of experience yourself.

Wait, I thought that was one of the reasons for boards like this. The ability to read and learn and add what you gain from the interaction to your own experiences so you don't have to repeat all the mistakes others have. For example, some may get caught up in a cycle where they treat their display for red bugs, but for whatever reason they can't seem to get the hang of keeping red bugs out of their display tanks. So, they are in this cycle where they have to treat over and over again, never learning how to avoid all the senseless killing. Please try to avoid that mistake, at least, even if you do decide that you have to nuke your display.

 

[TIMMYE]

Ok thanks for the help guys.....and for the links. Time for some more reading.

 

[TIMMYE]

Well I treated in my QT tank. One down two to go. Wish me luck!!

 

["Umm fish?"]

Good luck!

 

[flyyyguy]

Good luck. It shouldnt be tough to get rid of them off of three corals....i assumed we were talking about more than that.

What kind of lights do you have in your qt?? You will want to wait a couple weeks to put them back in your display to make sure any in the display have died from lack of acro. Supposedly they will die within 5 days........but I wouldnt bank on it. Unless you have good lighting in your qt which most people dont, you will want to reacclimate them to your lights again.

Good luck getting rid of the little %$#$6^%$^'ds for good

 

[TIMMYE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10464390#post10464390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
Good luck. It shouldnt be tough to get rid of them off of three corals....i assumed we were talking about more than that.

What kind of lights do you have in your qt?? ........but I wouldnt bank on it. Unless you have good lighting in your qt which most people dont, you will want to reacclimate them to your lights again.

Good luck getting rid of the little %$#$6^%$^'ds for good

I am not sure where you got three from? I have about 40 Pieces in QT tank right now. As for lighting I have them under 200watts of PC about 6" from the bulbs. So I will be acclimating to the lights again. And I am adding a new set of 250's on each end of the tank.