Reefs & Horses

[seagazer]

Good day all, My tank is a 37 gallon tall. I have aprox., 70lbs of live rock now 10 months old. I have varoius soft corals, mushrooms, gorgoneans, polyps, two african pipefish, one pb tang, 4 hipocampus erectus-seahorses, other rock feeders, bottoms feeders, and a full clean up crew. I've had my ups, and my downs with water, and I am currently stuck. I had a ph drop about 3 mos ago. A baadd one. I've finally gotten it back up to 8.0 right now. My kh is measuring 36-38. I can't do anything to bring my kh down without reducing my ph. I can't raise my ph any further without making my kh worse.

After a bunch of reading, and alot of frustration, I think I need to just stop adding buffer, not add any more c-balance, no more calcium, and just sit back and wait/test.

Does anyone have any ideas. All of my other levels are perfectly fine. My amonia was a little elevated at .50. I don't see any life threatening issues yet, but I'm a little paranoid after losing so much to a ph issue. I do have a horrable problem with seahair.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
Best Regards
seagazer

 

[DrBDC]

36-38 dKh?! I would start doing some water changes right away on that one. If it were 15 or so I'd slowly let it come down. If you were adding all that buffer I'd imagine the calcium has dropped out of solution. Once you have your initial water parameters set, always dose a balanced 2 part and never just buffer or just ca. What is your magnesium? That can cause a bizarre balancing problem as well.

 

[marinelife]

my guess is bad test kit

 

[trueperc]

Not trying to insult you but I believe you have to much in the way of live stock, I mean just a PB TANG in a 37 gallon and tall at that, this are swimmer and need a long tank of easy a 100 gallons, I am no tang police as I have 5 tang in a 220 but at least is 6 feet. What else do you mean rock feeders and bottom feeders. To me you problem is this amount of live stock, seahorse should be in okay with the pipefish but even then its a small tank and with all that livestock you are going to find it very hard to maintane a stable enviroment.

 

[techigirl78]

Try taking a water sample to the LFS and having them test it to verify the results.

On top of the smaller tank size, I would say that the seahorse and pipefish really shouldn't be housed with a tang. Typically, species only tanks are recommended for them. I'd rrecommend getting rid of the tang and looking into getting fish more suitable for seahorses if you want to keep fish with them once your tank parameters are stablized. Here's a nice list: http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/tankmates.shtml

 

[Pandora]

I agree with what the others have said, and just want to add that seahorse tanks are notoriously high nutrient loaded, because of the fact that you have to regularly feed them large amts of either live or frozen foods. Tangs also produce a lot of waste, in addition to needing more swimming room as the others have said. You're going to continue to battle algae & pH problems as a result of that combination (excess decomposition of organics will drop your pH, and just adding buffer alone won't solve that problem), and I would really consider giving up on the tang, upgrading your skimming capacity (I hope you've got one!) and doing a lot of reading at www.seahorse.org ; it's a great resource for SH fans! Good luck...

 

[seagazer]

Thanks!

Thanks!

Wow,
Lots of info.! Well, definately getting rid of the Tang. Does anyone have any suggestions of catching him? The only way I know is to use two nets, and try to chase him in. I was skeptical about the pb tank, but I was ensured that it shouldn't be a problem. Up to lately it hasn't but he seems to think the markings on my horses are food. Needless to say they aren't the happy go lucky horses they were.

Thanks all,
All of your comments are not being takin lightly. I appreciate your experience, and I'm sure I have alot to learn.
My best regds to all!
Seagazer

 

[Puffdragon]

An idea with the seahorses. Put macro algae inth display. That will help with the organic load. Then harvest it out.

 

[Pandora]

Seagazer...

by the way...

On catching the tang, they are crazy fast and difficult to catch during the day if there is a lot of rockwork. At the store, we used the 2 net technique and took out the LR, not always easy in a display tank. If yours sleep out in the open, sometimes you can surprise them at night without lights on and you don't have to do the stressful chase technique at all, but this is all on timing.

 

[seagazer]

Thanks for the ideas! Macro Algie? I thought the macro algie was the purple/green/pink growth on my live rock? Can you please clarify?

Also, I think I will try the two net method. I'm going to try at night, or maybe when I'm target feeding the horses with mysis, I can bait him into my big net? She goes "really" crazy when she sees the tip of my seaquirt entering the water to feed. Sometimes I can't even get the food out before she's attacking it. I'm going to do my best not to move the rock. That REALLY scares me. I'm afraid of what it might do to the horses? Lots of stirring up, and I wouldn't want to damage they're gills.

You guys/gals I really appreciate the advise I'll keep you posted. Here's another question though. I have a 12 gallon nano set up as my seahorse fry nusery. The salinity is set at 1.016 so the fry won't be so boyant. I'm not currently using it, but I can use it as a holding tank, when I do catch the tang. Can the tang handle the "hypo" salinity for a day or two. I read somewhere that hypo salinity was good for getting rid of pests to. He's healty, but I was just wondering if the nano would serve as a good holding tank for a day or two?

Thanks again
Seagazer

 

[Pandora]

seagazer, I think what you are describing is coralline algae... this is the hard, predominantly purplish crusty algae that grows on rocks and is desirable. Macroalgae are other generally desirable types of algae (the "macro" refers to the size, as in not microscopic and multicellular), which include a large number of species, including various types of caulerpa, red algaes, etc. Many prefer chaetomorpha, which is like tangled spaghetti, because it doesn't go sexual and pollute the tank. The larger algaes are usually pleasant to look, provide homes for pods and other good bugs, and "export nutrients", meaning that they take dissolved nutrients like phosphates and nitrates out of the water before they promote the growth of nuisance algaes, such as cyanobacteria, diatoms, red slime & hair algae (technically a "macro" also, but no one wants it with the way it spreads )

I wouldn't move the rock unless you really need to. Unfortunately, tangs are really wiley and good at evading capture with their speed and quick movements, it may take you a while. I wouldn't stir the sand if you can avoid it, since it could cause a tank crash.

On the hyposalinity, yes people do use FW dips on tangs, short dips will not hurt it. 1.016 is more brackish to just lower saline than most reef tanks, and should be fine for your tang for a day or so. In fact, some people who keep fish-only tanks keep it close to this SG all the time (and yes, the SH raising technique as you mentioned). I think the size of the tank may stress him out more, but such a period of time, no huge difference between this and a hospital tank.

 

[seagazer]

Hi Pandora,

Thanks! I think I'm going to go with the two net method for now and see how it goes. I'm releaved that I can use the nano as a temp. holding tank.

I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks/Your the best!

 

[daveNandi]

A couple of thoughts:

I'd make sure to carefully acclimate the tang to the new water chemistry - don't just dump him in.

As for raising ph without changing Kh try kalkwasser (CaOH).

David

 

[DrBDC]

kalk WILL raise the Kh. It is a balanced Ca and Alk supplement. It supplies my tank with 2 dKh per day!

 

[Ali]

IME...The best and easiest way to catch a fish in a display tank is to drain the water down to about and inch or two and just scoop it up...much less time, much less stress on you and the fish and the corals on the rockwork do not mind being out of the water for a ew minutes....with a 37g it should take you less than 10 mins. good luck...

 

[seagazer]

Good day all,

So I think your saying that "kalk" is not a good idea?

I have some news on my "tang". I think he's actually an alien. He knows my every move. He watches me like he wants me to try and catch him. I think he is playing with me. I put my net in the water and he swims right up to it, and looks at me. I swear he is smiling at me. I'm thinking about some levitation classes. Maybe I can learn to levitate the little turkey right out of the water.

Seriously,
I think I've died, and gone to my own little "Powder Blue Hell".

I'll use the water drain as a last resort. I think I've really gotten myself into a situation this time.

You guys are great! keep the advise coming pleeeeaaaaasse!
Best rgds
Seagazer

 

[DrBDC]

Nothing wrong with kalk as a pH raiser. Just find the amount needed for the change needed. But low pH is not necessarily a pH "fixer". It does have a high pH and is a great balanced ca/alk supplement. But if your Kh is that high, I would consider other methods. Ammonia should be 0 otherwise you need to find out why it isn't. Something dieing or decaying material can lower the pH.

Here is a good link about low pH:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

 

[Pandora]

I would probably attack the source of the problem first, which is a little bit of overstocking; not having the tang will relieve some of this, but most SH tanks have a long battle with high nutrient load, as I said, due to feeding. Anyone who has had SH's knows that they are tough to keep the nitrogenous dissolved compounds down in; the frequent live/frozen foods along with relatively low flow necessitate that.

You have to understand, that a lot of people here on RC are SPS fans, they do not keep SH tanks (small polyps stony corals, they are more fastidious about water quality requirements). In your case, you said you keep:

I have varoius soft corals, mushrooms, gorgoneans, polyps

In other words, not as much of a need for constant calcium supplementation at all. Small amts of kalk in your topoff water could help your buffering capacity, but I would say that your situation is different from a lot of reefer's. Go to the source of the nutrients first; with the tang gone, you may also be able to target feed your horses easier, also cutting down on load. And good luck catching him, I think that draining idea sounds like a pain but sounds like a good idea I'll try in a fix next time.