Required Tank Regulations for Fish

[chrisfont23]

I have read countless posts on plenty of forums about what people should not do regarding keeping fish in tanks. A majority of them go something like this: "Please do not put [this fish] in a tank that small." Out of curiosity, what would it take to pass a regulation that requires LFS and the likes to put minimum recommended capacity ratings when selling both SW and FW fish? Has this been tried?

Regardless of the warning, people are going to buy what they want - I get it. But for the humanity aspect, shouldn't a consideration like this be taken seriously?

Would love to know people's thoughts...

 

[Ambition]

They do suggest a minimum tank size for fish. With tangs, angels, and the like they are no where near sufficient for the fish. I would love to see something like that happen though.

I have heard that they will lose money by not selling tangs to people with tanks that are too small, but I don't believe large fish make up that much of their profit...

 

[reeferstace]

I wish stores would do that but it's not likely ever to happen.

 

[philter4]

While I agree with the fact that stores should inform people of the correct size tanks for the different species what about personal responsibility? I used to own a store in Rancho Bernardo (north county San Diego area) and I would be rich if I got a penny for every customer who was just going to grow the fish up in the current small tank then move it to the 4 million gallon display tank they had being built. Why is it the stores responsibility to stop a person from doing what they want? If I didn't sell them the fish not only would they go down the street but they probably would never come back to my store and this was a business set up to make money not an educational facility set up to do the moral thing. This may sound harsh but it is a reality that until the hobby takes away the value of the animals it will always be set up to make money not necessarily for the education of the hobbyists or the end health of the animals. Do you really think that any store or online vendor will turn down a sale after they have given all of the information needed to keep a certain species of tang or any other fish for that matter? As sad as this is, at my store and in all of my dealings with the public and selling the fish we would do our best to give the buyer the knowledge he or she needed to keep the animals alive and healthy but after it left the store we have no control of what they do.

Also to introduce any sort of regulations into the hobby just spells restrictions to the rest of the hobby, if you knew how much the lawmakers in places like California and even Florida to a lesser extent wanted to end the marine hobby it would scare you. In the recent past, and maybe still today there were the beginnings of a law that would make it illegal to own any fish or invert other then guppies and goldfish. The law was going to list the animals that were legal to own rather then the ones you couldn't and if it was not on the list it was not legal to own, at the time I read the basic outline there were no corals or motile inverts listed on the proposal. That means that there would be no such thing as a reef tank.

Thankfully they did not let it get any further then a thought but everywhere you look they are trying to restrict the hobby more and more. In Florida there have been no new commercial collecting licenses allowed for at least 10 years and there is no plans to lift the moratorium, the new regulations now also say that if your license is inactive or you don't sell at least $5000 dollars a year for three years in a row they do not renew the license, taking another valid one out of circulation. Go to San Francisco and look at the regulations, it is now illegal to buy a cat or dog in the city limits and they have just taken under consideration stopping the sale of all live animals, even goldfish unless the holding facility is set up to maintain the fish to it's adult size. That may sound good at first but that would end all sales of goldfish including feeders, it would stop the sale of any marine fish whose adult size didn't fit in a reasonable store set up, so any fish that would out grow a 40 gallon tank or maybe even smaller if the store needed to use 20 gallon tanks on a system because of the size and rent in a city like SF. If they could tell you what you needed to keep a fish when would the next step be taken, namely that a fish store couldn't hold a fish unless it had the correct tank size for that species and so on until it would end the hobby as we know it.

 

[JSeymour]

I know what you are saying and feeling OP, but I disagree.

I am 100% against any sort of regulation of this sort. Who gets to decide what a fish needs? Using what information? The only information that could really be taken into account is adult size, diet, and wild territory sizes. Surgeonfish often have home territories that make most public aquaria seem small. Should no one be able to keep a tang? What about large angels? In the wild they can have territories as large as a typical bedroom. I know none of my tanks are that large. What would the law be on morays, sharks, groupers, large wrasse, etc?

And where would it stop. Maybe the person who decides all this, decides if it schools in massive numbers in the wild, that is the only way they should be kept, so now there are minimum purchases of 100 chromis or cardinals.

Under most circumstances, I don't believe the government should have a say in my personal hobbies. It's my responsibility to research my purchases, to purchase ethically, to avoid problem stores and species. The only part of this hobby that I feel the government should be involved is collection, notably threatened and endangered species and 'raped' habitats. Beyond that, they can keep their grimy hands out of my tanks.

 

[vaporized]

In theory it sounds like a good idea, but it would never work or likely cause more regulations to the hobbyist. Regulations are a pain and that is why people can't stand government.

 

[planedoc]

How many people have 8 foot plus tanks? Do you think a fish store would stock any tangs if they could only sell to a person with a 8 foot + tank. I think its a great idea , its kind of like a regulation on having children. Do I think there should be one yes, will there ever be one, I doubt it.
I also heard if you put 4 large power heads on one side if your tank you can create a flow where a tang can swim forever. It's the never ending tank.

 

[Dapg8gt]

Regulations lead to more problems than there worth. And even if it was imposed all a customer would have to do is lie and say "I have a 240 gallon tank for that tang". Who would enforce it. I agree it's an ethical thing that sadly a lot of people have lost all touch with and will do things knowing there not right just because they want it or think they know more than the experienced person advising them against it.

I was actually at petco the other day and watch a young salesman sell a family a 20 gal long tank with a small back pack filter and 4 you heard right four oscars and said as long as you add this miracle bacteria daily you will have no problems and because you are getting four fish they will stay small.. I tried to say something but the family looked at me like I was just some dumb person and disregarded every word I said. Moral of my unneeded story in this discussion is stores and people will do what they want regardless.. Stores want to make money and people want what they want. It's sad but true.

 

[JSeymour]

I also heard if you put 4 large power heads on one side if your tank you can create a flow where a tang can swim forever. It's the never ending tank.

Just so you know, this is not true at all. In freshwater this can work, but marine fish, especially tangs, are used to extreme currents like nothing we can replicate in captivity. They flit around like butterflies in these currents.

 

[planedoc]

I was joking, I spent 5k on my 8 foot tank because I wanted tangs.
I go to lfs and I watch people buy fish on impulse. A couple times I've asked people,"do you know what that fish eats"? It's funny the dear in head lights look I get. I've changed s few people's minds.

 

[CAPSLOK]

Retailers should be required to post the actual adult (captive) size of a fish, and any other critical info about it (as in, a fish like a catalina goby that requires cooler temps). So people aren't relying totally on what that salesperson wants to tell you to make the sale - there is accurate info right there.

That being said, I do think it is the buyer's responsibility to research their purchase ahead of time and know what they are getting. But, let's face it, the majority of people either don't research or research afterwards (or go by the random salesperson's opinion). So if it is at least posted then people have the option whether to blatantly ignore it or not. At least if it is posted, the salesperson can't say "Oh yes, that blue tang will only get to 3" and will be fine in your 55g tank with your trigger and emperor angel." You're right, people are going to buy what they want so there's no point to "forbidding" someone to purchase an inappropriate fish. But hopefully that would limit the people who are doing it unintentionally.

I work in an animal shelter, and it amazes me that even with the more well known pets (cats and dogs), people still don't know a darn thing about their animals or just make impulse decisions about a new pet. We've had a purebred german shepherd surrendered, because he grew too large (what the heck did you think you bought - a cocker spaniel?). Unfortunately, regardless of what is best for the animals (fish or otherwise), people just want to do what makes them happy at the moment and then deal with a problem when it comes up later.

 

[MrTuskfish]

The days of informative LFS employees/owners are a thing of the past.Too bad, they once were THE source for good info. They just can't compete with the online dealers and Petco types.
The OP calls for a regulation. Regulating fish tank sizes; the ultimate Nanny state. Doesn't the hobbyist have some responsibility to do some research? I'm constantly astonished at the number of folks who will plop down thousands of dollars to get started in the hobby having done basically no research whatever. Read a book. IMO, this hobby cannot be learned with the internet forum Q&A format that is so prevalent now.

 

[JSeymour]

How many of us buy our test kits, halide and t5 bulbs, supplements, salt, and livestock purely, or atleast mostly, from a LFS? I guarantee it's a small percentage. So how can you expect these same stores to pay the wages to keep and bring in highly educated employees? They can't, so they hire high school kids, "who love animals", who will work for minimum wage plus an instore discount.

If you really want LFSs to step up, support the good ones and buy your supplies locally. Help them pay their bills and keep their great employees. Get your local reef clubs to support these same stores, maybe try to work out group buys with them. It might not be quite as cheap as ordering directly from BRS, but that extra few bucks will help them keep doing all the things you love about their store. It's our own fault the typical LFS has gone to crap, we stop supporting them as a whole.

 

[Fatmike92]

I used to work for the LFS in my area and I would not allow people to buy things if it was not going to be a goof fit for their tank or if it was going to get way to large for the tank

I had a couple of people saying they were going to write bad reviews or call the news stations to give us a bad name because I was trying to look out for the hapiness of the fish lol needless to say no news station ever came to the store

but they are out there just hard to find

 

[MrTuskfish]

How many of us buy our test kits, halide and t5 bulbs, supplements, salt, and livestock purely, or atleast mostly, from a LFS? I guarantee it's a small percentage. So how can you expect these same stores to pay the wages to keep and bring in highly educated employees? They can't, so they hire high school kids, "who love animals", who will work for minimum wage plus an instore discount.

If you really want LFSs to step up, support the good ones and buy your supplies locally. Help them pay their bills and keep their great employees. Get your local reef clubs to support these same stores, maybe try to work out group buys with them. It might not be quite as cheap as ordering directly from BRS, but that extra few bucks will help them keep doing all the things you love about their store. It's our own fault the typical LFS has gone to crap, we stop supporting them as a whole.

Its not our fault; its simply progress. Internet dealers can sell better livestock at a better price, with a better guarantee and hard goods at a volume price. The LFS is simply a victim of the world we live in; same for many businesses. To make any money as a LFS, you'd better have a thriving tank maintenance business as well. Judging from many of the questions the beginners often have, its obvious the Authors of books on our hobby are hurting too.

 

[JSeymour]

Its not our fault; its simply progress. Internet dealers can sell better livestock at a better price, with a better guarantee and hard goods at a volume price. The LFS is simply a victim of the world we live in; same for many businesses. To make any money as a LFS, you'd better have a thriving tank maintenance business as well. Judging from many of the questions the beginners often have, its obvious the Authors of books on our hobby are hurting too.

Progress or an unwillingness to pay for information? I agree for the most part with what you've said here, but people expect everything to either be cheap or free, as if they are entitled for some reason. I can't tell you how often a 'customer' comes in, expecting an associate to spend hours with them, explaining proper care, maintenance, the benefits of one product, the pitfalls of another, only to leave and buy elsewhere because of a dollar or two price difference. As you said, LFS are a victim of the world we live it, the internet era, and as such some have 'evolved' into the money-grubbing, misinformation speciallists they are.

All I'm saying is if the public expects and receives excellent service from a company, whether goods or time, you should support them so they can continue to do so and improve on those services.

 

[alton]

99% of my stuff and fish come from LFS's, I guess I am lucky our stores here in san Antonio are really pretty good. Products at most stores compete with the Internet, fish are just as good if not better as online. Most stores will order what ever you want? On the fish story thing, one of my lFS was telling me he had a disgruntled cutomer just leave, seems he was in the day before and purchased two nemos as he called them since this was the time frame of when nemo was big at the box office and his daughter wanted two. Well he came back the next day madder than heck because they did not warn him his Oscars would eat them! I guess he didn't watch the movies close enough to see that clownfish live in the ocean which is saltwater? Sometimes you cannot fix stupid?

 

[CAPSLOK]

Wow, although most stores label which tanks are SW versus FW or Brackish, they really shouldn't have to ask that kind of question.... Can you imagine asking every customer: "And do you have a saltwater aquarium for this fish?"