Rock "Cooking"--a dangerous trend or something worthwhile?

[gman0526]

Why do we care about a couple of pods, sponges and featherdusters dying in a dark curing bin, when this rock goes through hell and back before it's stablished in our tanks? Maybe apart from "fresh" Florida aquacultured rock, all the rock that comes from the Pacific is probably out of water for about 90% of the time, or do you really think that they ship the LR with the added weight of SW to keep EVERYTHING alive? Some of this rock is even shipped on boats which takes even longer. Why do you think they powerwash the rock? So all the decaying crap doesn't make it to your door. Then comes the cycle when we sometimes see levels of ammonia so high that is a miracle even a single copepod makes it through it. And you mean to tell me that you're worried about a couple of featherdusters and pods that, according to YOU, won't make it in a "cooking" bin? Dude, you need to find a better argument than this to even come close to debunking the benefits of dark curing.

There's a good amount of people that have had success with dark curing. When are you going to set up a dark curing batch to disprove what they have accomplished? Other than that you're assuming and guessing, and we know what they say about assuming .

Like I told you the other day, proper husbandry should be the number one option, when that alone is not enough then consider dark curing. If you're setting up a tank and want to at least start with less nutrients in your rock, then dark cure your rock. Why start with the bucket half full when you can start with it on empty? You feel this won't help you? DON'T DO IT... by all means don't, but don't tell me I'm wrong because I want to do it and think somebody else can benefit from it. Find a better argument, we don't care what you "think", give me evidence or proof.

Now go and buy a recharge kit for your sandbed.... Oh wait, you don't need it, you didn't cook your rock. Peace

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624400#post6624400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman0526
Now go and buy a recharge kit for your sandbed.... Oh wait, you don't need it, you didn't cook your rock. Peace

Why does it not surprise me that the people who buy this cooking idea hook, line, and sinker are the same people who can't log off of Reef Central long enough to read a book and find out the exploding sandbed nonsense is just an urban legend cooked up by a few loudmouths of the net? Maybe if I had 15,000 posts I could convince you that your fish were shedding phosphate--oh my god, they do!!! Time to cook them!

As to the "nothing is going to live anyway" line of thinking regarding rock curing--I've seen sps live through curing. Good luck having that happen with cooking. I'm going to ask this question once more, because NOBODY has yet answered it--if you don't want the stuff that comes with live rock, why the hell do you pay so much for it when you could just get dead rock and wait a few weeks for naturally occuring bacteria to colonize it?

 

[gman0526]

But I'm not talking about an exploding sandbed here. I'm talking about the valuable pods that are needed for a SB to function. Or are you going to discredit the "experts" you so diligently and readily quote? I know for a fact a DSB can function if it has enough critters and is properly setup, it can probably last indefinetely if taken care off correctly, just not my problem anymore and not the discussion in here. BTW, give me the actual book that says that "rock cooking" is wrong. There isn't any, because nobody has really thought about it until it became popular as an OPTION.

As far as the buying LR vs. buying base rock I haven't seen anybody saying that it has to be LR to be "cooked". And if you want a reason I'll give you one:

***Since most of the life in the rock will survive the "cooking" process, it will be there anyways and we cause anything catasthropic.

Now give me your PROOF, again not your opinion, that it won't work, that everything dies and that we are so wrong.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624611#post6624611 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman0526

Now give me your PROOF, again not your opinion, that it won't work, that everything dies and that we are so wrong.

This is from an earlier post of mine on this page:

I keep seeing "I swear nothing but the algae died off during cooking. I have pods galore," in these threads. I've got a question about this--what are these pods eating for the 3+ months they are in the trashcan? By definition, you are doing everything possible to remove detritus from the rocks--how are the detrivores going to survive this? The other thing pods tend to eat is algae--again, you're eliminating this food source.

Can you answer this for me, because I would love to get ahold of the miracle pods that don't need a food source?

 

[JerseyReef]

Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

I haven't made a legitimate post on this BB for a very long time and with good reason. I guess this looks like a good opportunity to give my thoughts on the topic.

If placing your rock in a dark tub for an extended period of time helps to address extreme nutrient problems with certain rock, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, if done correctly it works very well. However, not addressing the issues that caused the nutrients to build up in the rock in the first place, you're back to square one in 4-8 months time.

I guess I've been "cooking" my rocks for years. I have a 40gal tub with about 150 pounds of rock sitting in a water solution of ~ 20.0 ppt with a single powerhead (for water movement). Why? It's the best place for them at the given moment in time. I've rotated rocks out of this tub when it suits me or when I'm looking for something different with my aquascape. Have I used it to correct a problem rock? Yes, but only as part of a treatment, not as a cure.

Does "cooking" rocks work to "cure" algae problems with certain rocks? In short no, it's part of an overall treatment option, not a "cure". "Cure" can be a subjective term if used improperly. Cure can be defined as the eradication and elimination of an affliction. Based on that definition, the answer, cooking rocks are not a cure.

Subjecting rock to dark environments is a "treatment" option, not a cure. Sure it will kill organic matter that requires photosynthesis to live. The inorganic and organic build up in the rock (if that was the underlying cause for the algae) must be removed. If placing the rock in the dark is to be considered part of the overall treatment method in working to cure the rock of the algae problem, (again if the rock is the source of the build up in the first place) only then does placing the rock in the dark is worthwhile and provide any benefit. Just placing a rock in the dark without addressing it's root cause problem is a waste of time. You'll be looking to place that rock back in the dark in short order.

Now that being said, if had received rock from an unknown source (which most of us receive). I'd throw it into my dark tub and rotate it in when needed.

BTW - I just took a look in the tub. I see some signs of life on my rocks (few pods and worm or two scattered about) even at 20.0 ppt. Sunlight isn't need for all life forms to survive. The rock is most likely still full of life when placed back into the system.

I'm not sure if I'll post on a regular basis or not. Maybe I'll leave that up to Boomer to decide

 

[gman0526]

What do most pods eat? Detritus... right? I mean they're detrivors. What is that crap that come out of the rock? Most people calls it detritus as far as I know.

 

[finneganswake]

Re: Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

Re: Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624674#post6624674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JerseyReef
Subjecting rock to dark environments is a "treatment" option

I have no problem with this at all. My problem is that it's being pushed as THE option to newbies who don't know any better. I posted earlier that I have no problem with experienced reefers trying out alternative measures, but telling someone who has no husbandry skills that they need to go to such extremes is unfounded given that the problem is probably as simple as too much feeding or crappy skimmer maintainance. Just try browsing the general forums without seeing 10 or 15 cooking threads.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624692#post6624692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman0526
What do most pods eat? Detritus... right? I mean they're detrivors. What is that crap that come out of the rock? Most people calls it detritus as far as I know.

Nice try--you know that part of the cooking process is moving that detritus out of the trashcan. Now if the magic pods have found a way to get it from the toilet back to the trashcan...

 

[RichardS]

IMO, the "rock cooking" is oversold as I said but I don't think the argument that your going to lose lots of desirable life on the rock is valid. Obviously those who have done are telling you it has not happened so I don't understand why people who have never done it would insist that everything is going to die.

A couple of years ago I had a 140 leak. I stuck all of the rock in a covered trash can on my porch with just a pump for circulation while I took the opportunity to upgrade to a larger tank. It ended up taking almost 6 months before the rock went into the new setup. The coralline was slighty bleached but quickly rebounded. Pods & worms (peanut, spaghetti, etc.) were plentiful on/in the rock. Even some discosoma's that were on the rocks survived and quickly regained their color once they were given light.

On the other side of the argument I think it is also invalid to claim all this good life is going to survive and then turn around and say the "bad" algaes are going to die off. They don't die either. I will bet that someone can "cook" their rock for ANY length of time and then stick it in a tank, dose some lawn fertilizer, turn the lights on and then watch the hair/nuisance algae go crazy. That's because they didn't die either.

 

[gman0526]

Have you heard about the magic bacteria? They're a distant relative of the nuclear copepods? where do the magic bacteria find food? Within the magic rock that happens to be loaded with magic nutrients, that happened to be the food of the magic algae b4 it was placed in the bin. You are really not going to argue that the bacteria die too, right?

 

[Ereefic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6623883#post6623883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic
What creatures are being killed off from cooking the rock, and what role would they play in my tank?

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624784#post6624784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman0526
Have you heard about the magic bacteria? They're a distant relative of the nuclear copepods? where do the magic bacteria find food? Within the magic rock that happens to be loaded with magic nutrients, that happened to be the food of the magic algae b4 it was placed in the bin. You are really not going to argue that the bacteria die too, right?

No, my argument is that you can save hundreds of dollars by buying dead rock and waiting for this bacteria to colonize the rock instead of cooking live rock.

 

[gman0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624806#post6624806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic

I can see some specialized herbivore feeding organisms die, other than that... let's see how the assuming and guessing goes

 

[Ereefic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624750#post6624750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Nice try--you know that part of the cooking process is moving that detritus out of the trashcan. Now if the magic pods have found a way to get it from the toilet back to the trashcan...

The whole time it's cooking, it's shedding detritus into the cooking bin, giving the pods food, keeping them alive. You dunk and swish the rock, empty and clean the cooking bin and put new SW and rock back in. Rock sheds more, feeding the pods, so on and so forth. How does this kill pods?

 

[gman0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624846#post6624846 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
No, my argument is that you can save hundreds of dollars by buying dead rock and waiting for this bacteria to colonize the rock instead of cooking live rock.

And my argument is that you can save 100's of dollars in guess work and new equipment to control an algae breakout. May I say PO4 binders/reactors/media, blah, blah, blah.? For each "cooking rock" reccomendation ,there's one out there to get a PO4 binder media/reactor.

This is fun

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624881#post6624881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman0526
And my argument is that you can save 100's of dollars in guess work and new equipment to control an algae breakout. May I say PO4 binders/reactors/media, blah, blah, blah.? For each "cooking rock" reccomendation ,there's one out there to get a PO4 binder media/reactor.

This is fun

Nice--that's the argument people originally gave for skimmers! Get with the picture, grandpa!

EDIT--I meant to say AGAINST skimmers--that they weren't worth the money as you could control algae with massive water changes.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624878#post6624878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic
The whole time it's cooking, it's shedding detritus into the cooking bin, giving the pods food, keeping them alive. You dunk and swish the rock, empty and clean the cooking bin and put new SW and rock back in. Rock sheds more, feeding the pods, so on and so forth. How does this kill pods?

Ok, let me get this straight--according to you, you EMPTY the cooking bin of detritus and said detritus is going to feed the pods? I'm lost:lol:

 

[Ereefic]

Yes, you are lost. After you empty the bin and clean it out, the rocks will shed again (in the bin, with the water that the pods are in) feeding the pods.

 

[gman0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624906#post6624906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Nice--that's the argument people originally gave for skimmers! Get with the picture, grandpa!

I know... skimmers, another "crazy fad" proven right by "crazy people" going against the establishment.

It's awesome that you can actually troll your own thread.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6624934#post6624934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic
Yes, you are lost. After you empty the bin and clean it out, the rocks will shed again (in the bin, with the water that the pods are in) feeding the pods.

But you're going from 100% availability to (assumedly, if this actually works) 0% availability of detritus and they're somehow supposed to adapt to starvation and live through this???