Rubber couplings... (disaster story inside)

[shinyfish60]

(TL: DR(too long didn't read) version at the bottom.)

I understand this is a reef forum but the amount of knowledge regarding DIY here is staggering so I am hoping you guys can forgive me and help me solve a rather large problem.

First here is my story...

It starts like this...

I start getting that itch for new fish about 2 weeks ago and figure its to add a couple bigger fish to my 55gallon.
After a thread here I decide on Gouramis... Do a bit of quick research and figure I know what I am talking about.
So I drive ~30min to a store that I like since their stock always looks very healthy. I get there and choose 2 blue Gouramis and 2 gold ones
(those had been recommended by someone as well and I liked how they looked over the pearl ones and I mistakenly believed they were all color morphs)
and then I also grab some Lemon Tetras to fill out the school a bit.
I bring them home and acclimate them over 45min or so and then add them to the tank.
All seems well.

The next morning I find one dead tetra.. I am not entirely surprise and write that off.
Everyone is fed..

The morning after that I find a small dead Cory and another dead tetra.
The tetra i write off as another casualty of the move and the Cory i just tell myself I am being over cautious and that since I have so many in the tank i just didn't see the occasional die off every now and then.
I feed the tank and go to sleep...

The next morning I am a bit overwhelmed with what to think.
2 dead Corys and 2 dead tetras.
Now I begin to panic.. after a bit more research and really conflicting information I am left to believe it is the Gouramis.
I watch them like a hawk but fail to see anything that would indicate that it was the Gouramis causing these deaths.

It is now Sunday and I awake to nothing.
Sunday was a good day...

Monday morning.. 5 dead Corys and 2 dead tetras.
That it.. I call up the pet store I bought them at and ask if they would be able to take the fish back. They said sure and would give me store credit.
I mention I did not have my receipt, person on the phone says no problem.(the guarantee was 48hours and ended up throwing away after that.)
I go to work upset..
I come home and find a couple more dead Corys..
I bag up the Gouramis and drive 30min to the store.
I explain my situation and they then tell me they can take them back. But a sale had started and they would only be able to give me half price... With a blank stare I say fine.
I don't want to introduce anything knew to the tank so I grab some frozen food with the credit and come home.
Thinking this is over I try to forget about the entire misadventure and chalk it down to a somewhat expensive learning experience.

Its now Tuesday morning and I wake up to 4 more dead Corys. Up until this point it has been the smaller ones. I bread them recently and most from that batch are only just over an inch. However, this morning one of the adults is dead..

I tested all the water parameters.

* 78 f
* 7.8 ph
* 10 gh
* 0 ammonia
* 0 nitrite
* 10-20 nitrate


My only hope at this point is that those were ones that were abused by the Gouramis and had just yet to die last night. However, they show zero signs of injury or disease.

This whole event has been a rather humbling experience... knocked me back down to newb status.

Thanks for reading.
Any relating to my frustration or suggestions on what to do from here would be appreciated as my family thinks I am crazy for being this annoyed about the situation.

My plan is to hope that I don't wake up to more dead fish tomorrow and if I don't I am going to leave the tank alone for a couple weeks before I do anything else with it.

5 more dead when i got home from work from earlier.. They have zero signs of any problems... I do not get it...

I finally saw one of them die, basically it was looking normal and then all of a sudden it spazed out swimming erratically toward the surface and then died(as far as I could tell/no gill movement) about 30seconds later. A MAJOR THING I NOTICED is that their eyes seem to get bloodshot.. don't know why I did not notice this before but it seems to be how they are.

I have had a bit of a realization as to what it could be. The same day I bought the gouramis I did a 50% water change using a new rubber coupler to replace an old one on my python... I let water run through it for about 10min before using. This was the same thing I did the last time I replaced it(about 1yr ago).

Perhaps some type of chemical poisoning? Sigh this is a really rough learning experience...

I am doing a 70% water change right now with buckets and adding activated carbon..

Well there it is.. that is what I have gone through over the last week or so.
Currently I have completely taken the tank apart and have rinsed and wiped down everything.. All the livestock that is still alive I have moved to another tank.

I am fairly certain that the fish suffered some type of poisoning and I am trying to figure out what that is.

My only real idea is a rubber coupling I used to replace my hook up to my faucet on my python
It is one similar but smaller to this.. http://www.amazon.com/Premier-3-Rubber-Coupling/dp/B000DZFVYM

I had used one before in the same application with no problem. I treated this one the same way.. ran water through it for about 10min then used as normal. It still has a rather strong rubber smell.

Has anyone used these before? Are they known to be safe/toxic?

Any help would really be appreciated as I want to do everything possible to prevent this from happening again.


TL: DR Most of my fish have died/are dying, possible cause is new rubber coupling with strong rubber smell.. wondering if anyone knows these to be safe or not.

Thanks for reading would really appreciate any input.

 

[geo]

I have used those couplings to repair plumbing, I doubt the fitting itself is the culprit.

 

[stugray]

shinyfish60,

That coupling is safe for drinking water so I wouldnt think it is the problem.

You also say you are using it on your python where it connects to the faucet.

SO any water that goes through that fitting goes right down the drain, not to the tank.

If you saw the fish having spasms when it died, is there any chance you have stray voltage in the tank?
Maybe a broken or cracked heater?

Stu

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I think the WC killed the fish. You don't list your location, but if you are anywhere that gets a real winter, the water in your pipes is cold. Water in pipes is under pressure and is sometimes supersaturated with dissolved gases, but this happens to a greater degree at low temps. This supersaturated gas comes out of solution after the water gets to normal atmospheric pressure (that is, in your tank). The dissolved gases come out of solution as bubbles, and when this happens in the body of the fish, it happens in the capillaries, usually in the gills, but I suppose in the eyes as well -- this might be the bloodshot eyes you are seeing.

Excess chlorine in the WC water could be the culprit, too, as could pH shock from such a major WC. Unless you test both these parameters on each water change you cannot rule this out, since water out of the same tap is variable in CL and pH. And to pre-empt a common response: simply because you have been lucky with WC of such large volume in the past doesn't mean anything except that you have been lucky so far. Also, the gouramis could easily have brought in some infectious agent; this would explain why they themselves did not die (they could be immune carriers).

The fish deaths are overdetermined, IMO. I don't think it was the rubber fitting.

 

[shinyfish60]

shinyfish60,

That coupling is safe for drinking water so I wouldnt think it is the problem.

You also say you are using it on your python where it connects to the faucet.

SO any water that goes through that fitting goes right down the drain, not to the tank.

If you saw the fish having spasms when it died, is there any chance you have stray voltage in the tank?
Maybe a broken or cracked heater?

Stu

I also used the python to fill the tank so the water did pass through that as well. As for the stray voltage, it is possible but I don't believe likely as about 2 days after the first water change with the new gasket.
I will get a hold of a multimeter and check though.

I think the WC killed the fish. You don't list your location, but if you are anywhere that gets a real winter, the water in your pipes is cold. Water in pipes is under pressure and is sometimes supersaturated with dissolved gases, but this happens to a greater degree at low temps. This supersaturated gas comes out of solution after the water gets to normal atmospheric pressure (that is, in your tank). The dissolved gases come out of solution as bubbles, and when this happens in the body of the fish, it happens in the capillaries, usually in the gills, but I suppose in the eyes as well -- this might be the bloodshot eyes you are seeing.

Excess chlorine in the WC water could be the culprit, too, as could pH shock from such a major WC. Unless you test both these parameters on each water change you cannot rule this out, since water out of the same tap is variable in CL and pH. And to pre-empt a common response: simply because you have been lucky with WC of such large volume in the past doesn't mean anything except that you have been lucky so far. Also, the gouramis could easily have brought in some infectious agent; this would explain why they themselves did not die (they could be immune carriers).

The fish deaths are overdetermined, IMO. I don't think it was the rubber fitting.

Wow something I never thought about. Yes I do live somewhere rather cold right now, Chicago. Very interesting possibility, never thought of or heard it before. I will say I always do weekly 50% water changes, 70% really was not much more and they were dieing just as much before the 70% one. I understand I may have been lucky but it seems kind of an odd series of coincidences... but I agree that is not a reason to rule that out. While I do believe the gouramis could have brought an infection with them it seems like if it was that, the disease was acting incredibly fast (fish started dieing only 2 days after getting them).

I will say this in response to the water. Yesterday when I took the tank down I moved the fish to another tank, I filled that tank with water directly from the faucet and treated with dechlorinator made sure it was at temp and then i moved the fish. All with in the matter of an hour. So far there has only been 1 more death. I am not saying this disproves the possibilty of the above scenario just that it makes me not 100% comfortable that it was a fluke in the water supply.

I certainly do not mean to sound combative if I do and I really appreciate having people who know what they are talking about to bounce ideas off of.
These are just some things that would be going through my head if I tried to accept an answer that I can't be sure about.
I have had tanks up and running for 7yrs or so with no real problems especially of this magnitude. So I am really determined to at least have a reasonable cause to prevent this in the future.

I suppose at some time I may just need to accept that there may not be a provable answer.

Thanks for the responses I really do appreciated them.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I have had tanks up and running for 7yrs or so with no real problems especially of this magnitude. So I am really determined to at least have a reasonable cause to prevent this in the future.

Well, smaller WCs, for a start. And consider (though I don't do it, in part because marine fish are much less 'sickly' than FW fish) quarantining all new fish, or at least all wild-collected and foreign-produced fish. I think most gouramis are mass-produced in Asia; I know dwarfs (Colisa lalia) are, and a more sickly species of fish I would have trouble thinking of. They are bred for color and fast growth, not for health, and the trip from rural regions of SE Asia is a rough one.

(Edit: I just reread my response, and I think I took your "I am really determined to at least have a reasonable cause to prevent this in the future" to mean something like 'I want to figure out how to prevent this in the future', which is not what I now see that you meant. So the above paragraph is a little off-base.)

Also: Chicago is known for having a very "flukey" water supply regarding fishkeeping. Any municipality that is using surface water (Lake Michigan) has a big issue with periodic fluctuations in both TBC (total bacterial count) and coliform bacteria. To deal with these fluctuations they radically increase the amount of various disinfectants and oxidizers that they add to the water. This is one reason among many why I am a strong opponent of large WCs -- you simply don't know when the water supply will be, umm, adjusted. Usually this happens in the spring (large amounts of surface runoff --> increase in TBC), but can happen anytime. Maybe check with a group like Chicago Cichlid Assn to see if they noticed anything during the time period at issue.

 

[shinyfish60]

I ran to one of the better fish stores in my area with some pretty decent employees, I asked them if they had done water changes recently on their own tanks, they had also around 50% with no problems. They are on the same water as me.
I suppose it could easily vary block to block.

As for this as a cause, does it seem likely for a water change with supersaturated water to still be killing 4-5 days later?
I don't know how well I explained it before but the fish show no signs of stress before dieing... No listlessness and they all went crazy at feeding time like normal.
Then all of a sudden they start having trouble swimming and then they just kinda swim like a chicken with its head cut off and die a little later.


If that above seems like a realistic scenario then I will probably be comfortable accepting that as a cause.
Thanks for the responses they have been great.

I may just chalk it up to that and do smaller water changes from now on.

I suppose using the rubber thing still is probably fine.. I am rather nervous about filling the tank back up with it though.

 

[gbbari]

I thought freshwater fish need pH 7.0. Your water was 7.8. Isn't that too high? Corydoras live in slow moving slightly acidic water maybe 6.8 and tetras generally like pH 6.8 - 7.5.
You never mentioned your tank size. Could you temporarily do small water changes with distilled water bought from the store? It's usually pretty cheap.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Rereading the OP, I realized that you are likely filling the tank right out of the tap (through the Python). Not to come off too harshly, but this is really a sketchy way to do a WC -- can't test pH, temp is not always right on, dechlor mixes right in there with the livestock. A SW forum is full of is people who are really into pretreating water and making sure that it matches temp, pH, etc of the water in the tank; FW folks are not usually into these sorts of practices, but should be (not that I don't cut some corners, but my FW planted 58g gets only RODI water that is prewarmed and hardness-corrected). Really, I think maybe your WC practices just caught up with you. I'm sorry for the losses you experienced.

For info about specific symptoms of supersaturation problems ( I think it is just called 'gas-bubble disease' or something like that), you might search wetwebmedia.com, or email a question to the crew from their front page (though please note that I am not advising that you post to their forum).

 

[shinyfish60]

I thought freshwater fish need pH 7.0. Your water was 7.8. Isn't that too high? Corydoras live in slow moving slightly acidic water maybe 6.8 and tetras generally like pH 6.8 - 7.5.
You never mentioned your tank size. Could you temporarily do small water changes with distilled water bought from the store? It's usually pretty cheap.

What seems to be the general consensus is that a stable environment is much more important then the specific natural habitat. Many of the fish in the freshwater trade are MANY generation away from being wild caught.

Rereading the OP, I realized that you are likely filling the tank right out of the tap (through the Python). Not to come off too harshly, but this is really a sketchy way to do a WC -- can't test pH, temp is not always right on, dechlor mixes right in there with the livestock. A SW forum is full of is people who are really into pretreating water and making sure that it matches temp, pH, etc of the water in the tank; FW folks are not usually into these sorts of practices, but should be (not that I don't cut some corners, but my FW planted 58g gets only RODI water that is prewarmed and hardness-corrected). Really, I think maybe your WC practices just caught up with you. I'm sorry for the losses you experienced.

For info about specific symptoms of supersaturation problems ( I think it is just called 'gas-bubble disease' or something like that), you might search wetwebmedia.com, or email a question to the crew from their front page (though please note that I am not advising that you post to their forum).

Alright thanks for all the responses.. I have gone back and forth on the idea of pretreating water. From what I understand it just really is not that common in freshwater tanks except for discus and very sensitive fish. Perhaps that would have prevented this scenario though..

EDIT: I had looked up some pictures of gas bubble disease and it seems that the bubbles under the skin and around the eyes should have been rather evident. I did not see any of this. I suppose it could still be possible but now i am less sure.

I really appreciate all the responses.