Run gfo and carbon from day 1?
- Thread starter ibrat82
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Irishman360
New member
I would wait on running anything. GFO and carbon help clean up the water and algae. If you start to get out of control on your algae it could be multiple things but the GFO will help clear up the algae.
Have you seen your ammonia spike yet?
Have you seen your ammonia spike yet?
CStrickland
New member
I'd wait to see how the tank does without either. Gfo is a fix for phosphate, get a phos test and see if you have a problem first. Carbon can clear water, and remove allelopathic compounds, but it's not necessary at this point.
Just imho it's better to id the problem and then try to fix it. Adding unnecessary reactors can over complicate a new tank and lead to confusion. You might want to plug in your skimmer without the cup on it in the next week or so, so it can break in a little before it's needed.
Just imho it's better to id the problem and then try to fix it. Adding unnecessary reactors can over complicate a new tank and lead to confusion. You might want to plug in your skimmer without the cup on it in the next week or so, so it can break in a little before it's needed.
DiscusHeckel
Acropora Gardener
I would probably run both initially as long as there are no corals in the tank. But if you continue to run them in a new tank with corals, in my opinion, corals will suffer due to lack of nutrients.
Ron Reefman
Active member
I've been in the hobby for 10 years and my current 180g sps/lps tank does NOT run GFO or Carbon filtration. Why run what you don't need? This hobby is expensive enough and time consuming enough that adding cost and maintenance work to your system that you may not even need seems a bit wrong to me. Just my opinion though.
Reef Frog
New member
I must say that I'm impressed with anyone who is running a well fed, diverse, brightly lit reef tank for many years without GFO or other phosphate export schemes in place - and does not have an algae problem.
On my next tank I will attempt an ATS for algae control but will still plumb for and install an up flow reactor. I'll probably eventually need it for something and it's not particularly expensive in the overall scheme of things. But when PO4 registers above .04 ppm or so, GFO would be phased in quickly unless I believe that tweaking or enlarging the ATS would address the issue.
On my next tank I will attempt an ATS for algae control but will still plumb for and install an up flow reactor. I'll probably eventually need it for something and it's not particularly expensive in the overall scheme of things. But when PO4 registers above .04 ppm or so, GFO would be phased in quickly unless I believe that tweaking or enlarging the ATS would address the issue.
Ron Reefman
Active member
Frog, its called OTHER phosphate export
Yup. In my case a 45g refugium full of chaeto and a 2'x2' 8" deep DSB. I have very little issue with algae.
Dkuhlmann
New member
I agree Ron, I've got all kinds of algae growing in my sump and the Emerald Crab I banished to the sump is now HUGE, his shell is at least 2" from point to point. The only algae that grows in my DT is some small amounts of bubble algae. But the sump has large amounts of Chaeto and GHA. Oh and sponges, tons of sponges in my sump. I feed my tank very heavy and 3x a day. In addition to that I broadcast feed my corals twice a week. I also have gone to a once every three weeks wc. I'm going to watch things closely for a while and if still good will continue with 20% every three weeks. If not I'll go back to the 20% every two weeks,. Oh and I leave the lights on in my sump 24/7
In addition to what you mentioned I also have lots of LR in my sump. It's full of detrius and very nasty but my DT loves what I'm doing.
In addition to what you mentioned I also have lots of LR in my sump. It's full of detrius and very nasty but my DT loves what I'm doing.
Reef Frog
New member
Frog, its called OTHER phosphate export
Yea, heard about those fancy pants organic methods
! But they are not for everybody. A macro algae refugium big enough to a actually work and set up correctly isn't a possibility for everyone unfortunately. And all that detritus will have to be dealt with at one time or another. I've seen tanks with every conceivable PO4 reduction method still overrun with pest algae. There is no free lunch, no magic bullet. - and if there is I want in on it! GFO is nice for many because it's easy, quick & effective. I'm eager to see what ATSs are all about for algae control and hope I can put the reactor in semi retirement. I'll join all the cool kids & go natural
! We will see. But I think I'd always have a GFO option online as a back up. Many folks seem to do well with multiple methods. JMO. Whichever method can get to the PO4 first, the better. Luckily I think I have found an equilibrium with GFO where it keeps my algae in check but coral colors & growth are great too.
Dkuhlmann
New member
I really hate to pop your bubble Frog, but my sump is a 20 gal tall and I'm serious I have low nitrates and phosphates, with the only algae in my tank being a few bubble algae that has recently cropped up and of course coralline.
By me letting the algae go it's own way in the sump it keeps it out of my display. Sure I had all of the pop up algae after first starting this tank, GHA all over the back wall, Diatoms of course Cyano. For the last 6 months I've had no algae in my tank until recently the bubble algae and it's not that bad, actually some of it looks to be dying off.
I'm not trying to be the "cool kid" all natural as I've got everything I need IF I need it to get rid of algae. Too bad you're so far away or I'd have you come over and see for yourself.
I do vacuum out the detrius from my sump with every WC that I can get to eaisly. Then once every several months I pull out the LR and rinse it in fresh mix saltwater and do a good cleaning of the Sump as well as my protein skimmer.
Running my sump the way that I do is more or less like using an algae scrubber.
But sorry, I'm not one of those Cool Kids :lmao: :thumbsup:
My DT is a 40b with the 20 gal tall sump, I have lots of corals and you can see my tank in the LPS section called New Additions. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2540376 I'm running the Chinese LED lights, I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals and do a 20% WC every two weeks. I run my lights on 75% for 10 hours a day and I have 6 fish currently and have one coming tomorrow to share with a buddy and it will be mostly at his place. We're getting a matted file fish hoping it eats aiptasia. I'm also waiting for a large Royal Gramma from Live Aquaria. My other fish are Cherub Angel, McCosker's wrasse, Midas Blenny, Pair of Mocha Clowns and a Hector's goby. I also have a pair of Black Mollies in the sump. So by most peoples standards my tank is over crowded and yet I don't have any problems with water quality.
Oh edit to add I feed my fish pretty heavy as well as my corals. Fish are fed 3x per day. I like fat healthy and happy fish.
By me letting the algae go it's own way in the sump it keeps it out of my display. Sure I had all of the pop up algae after first starting this tank, GHA all over the back wall, Diatoms of course Cyano. For the last 6 months I've had no algae in my tank until recently the bubble algae and it's not that bad, actually some of it looks to be dying off.
I'm not trying to be the "cool kid" all natural as I've got everything I need IF I need it to get rid of algae. Too bad you're so far away or I'd have you come over and see for yourself.
I do vacuum out the detrius from my sump with every WC that I can get to eaisly. Then once every several months I pull out the LR and rinse it in fresh mix saltwater and do a good cleaning of the Sump as well as my protein skimmer.
Running my sump the way that I do is more or less like using an algae scrubber.
But sorry, I'm not one of those Cool Kids :lmao: :thumbsup:
My DT is a 40b with the 20 gal tall sump, I have lots of corals and you can see my tank in the LPS section called New Additions. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2540376 I'm running the Chinese LED lights, I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals and do a 20% WC every two weeks. I run my lights on 75% for 10 hours a day and I have 6 fish currently and have one coming tomorrow to share with a buddy and it will be mostly at his place. We're getting a matted file fish hoping it eats aiptasia. I'm also waiting for a large Royal Gramma from Live Aquaria. My other fish are Cherub Angel, McCosker's wrasse, Midas Blenny, Pair of Mocha Clowns and a Hector's goby. I also have a pair of Black Mollies in the sump. So by most peoples standards my tank is over crowded and yet I don't have any problems with water quality.
Oh edit to add I feed my fish pretty heavy as well as my corals. Fish are fed 3x per day. I like fat healthy and happy fish.
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CStrickland
New member
I think in a roundabout way this thread illustrates a good lesson for new reefers. Every successful tank is doing nutrient export. You have to remove all the nutrition you add. Fish are like us in the sense that for every 1/4 pounder we eat, we don't gain a 1/4#. Rather a great deal of the nutrition we consume is pooped out. Eating is super inefficient. So, everyone is doing something to get that stuff out of the water, since fish manure (like people poo) is great fertilizer. We all do something to get rid off phos so we don't have algae probs.
In my tank I vacuum the sand weekly to remove the manure before it turns into fertilizer. Some wait and then rely on gfo, or isolated algae, hoping they will win the race to gather that fertilizer before algae in the tank catches it. But I'll run gfo here and there, like after a vacation to clean up from the tanksitters enthusiastic feeding.
If the question were "is there a place for gfo and carbon in a reef tank?" I wouldn't hesitate to say yes. I think most would agree, and those that wouldn't are running other nutrient removal schemes, like my sand vacing, such that gfo would be redundant. So I guess the answer to OPs question is still no, but with a caveat that now is a good time to research and plan how you will export nutrients.
There are many ways, each with pros and cons. Most can wait until after the cycle to be employed, but it might be easier to decide now. Especially if you'll need to plumb in a dsb or fuge. You can add a reactor anytime you want, like after the bank balance recovers from your initial investment.
In my tank I vacuum the sand weekly to remove the manure before it turns into fertilizer. Some wait and then rely on gfo, or isolated algae, hoping they will win the race to gather that fertilizer before algae in the tank catches it. But I'll run gfo here and there, like after a vacation to clean up from the tanksitters enthusiastic feeding.
If the question were "is there a place for gfo and carbon in a reef tank?" I wouldn't hesitate to say yes. I think most would agree, and those that wouldn't are running other nutrient removal schemes, like my sand vacing, such that gfo would be redundant. So I guess the answer to OPs question is still no, but with a caveat that now is a good time to research and plan how you will export nutrients.
There are many ways, each with pros and cons. Most can wait until after the cycle to be employed, but it might be easier to decide now. Especially if you'll need to plumb in a dsb or fuge. You can add a reactor anytime you want, like after the bank balance recovers from your initial investment.
Isaacs55
New member
I wouldn't run gfo or carbon until you start to see a problem. If you put a ton of corals in within the first month and heavily feed them then sure add some gfo. It just depends on a lot of factors in my opinion. But simple 10% water changes should fix any of your problems when just starting a new tank. If you have a refugium and have some chaeto then that should be enough for nitrate and phosphate export. But again it just depends on your system. Everyone's system is different.
My tank is only 5 months and I had a little hair algae on a rock but that was because my BTA got chopped up in my power head so it fouled my tank. All I did was a water change and added some carbon to clear up my tank and take the horrid smell out. I only ran carbon for 24 hours and my tank is as good as new again. A lot of people over do it with the gfo and carbon. Some people leave carbon and gfo running on their tanks 24/7... I personally don't think that's necessary.
Here's my tank at 5 months with an ok husbandry schedule...meaning a 10% water change every 3 weeks or so...
My tank is only 5 months and I had a little hair algae on a rock but that was because my BTA got chopped up in my power head so it fouled my tank. All I did was a water change and added some carbon to clear up my tank and take the horrid smell out. I only ran carbon for 24 hours and my tank is as good as new again. A lot of people over do it with the gfo and carbon. Some people leave carbon and gfo running on their tanks 24/7... I personally don't think that's necessary.
Here's my tank at 5 months with an ok husbandry schedule...meaning a 10% water change every 3 weeks or so...
CStrickland
New member
Carbon depends on the critters. If you have allelopathic stuff like mushrooms, it's a great way to keep their defensive chemicals from nuking the tank. As opposed to lps that use stingers to defend territory, softies can pollute the water in a hurry if they get mad over a temp swing. In the ocean, that toxin blast keeps their rock free of competition then disperses, in a tank everyone is breathing the same water. Otoh, if you have tangs carbon can be a risk factor for hlle, which is no fun at all.
Reef Frog
New member
Good post. The import/export dynamics in a closed system can seem like an easy concept, but there are so many options, moving parts and even myths that it can indeed confound the new SW aquariast. Often the new folks focus after an algae bloom is on "killing it" as you would with pests or weeds in a garden with pesticides or herbicides. And adding something in a bottle is the solution they're looking for.
You can tell by reading between the lines of some posts that they are often disheartened when offered multi part strategies like physical removal, detritus removal, less feeding and several choices on exporting the actual nutrients themselves. Too many, it can sound so complex and difficult at first.
A friend & ex-employee is 5 months into a new tank and is extremely frustrated with a GHA outbreak. After ~2 weeks of GFO use he's declared it "doesn't work". I looked at his tank and the algae has stopped growing, looks sickly and is starting to break apart. He is still skeptical and impatient and wants much faster results. He's discovered options like TechM, peroxide & Algaefix Marine and he wants to throw it all, including the kitchen sink, at the problem. I was like that to a degree in the beginning too until the "nothing good happens fast" mantra really sunk in!
Reef Frog
New member
I should probably apologize for hijacking the thread.
The advice I offered was coming from my perspective of what I'm doing for my next tank, which would be a combination of my current live rock with corals and new rock; probably some dry & some live. 6 years in the hobby has been enough time to know that my new tank will be fed enough to need some serious PO4 export, and I'll have GFO in the toolkit for sure. For me, it's just too easy & cheap not to do so and the best time to plumb it is during the initial build. Even if it's utility is eliminated with my planned ATS, I want the option available.
I spent the first year or two keeping lots of hungry NPS/LPS corals relying only on water changes & the hope things would settle down. I experienced wave after wave of pest algae including GHA, Valonia (bubble) & Bryopsis. I was contemplating a tear down, but if it came back I probably would have left the hobby. GFO & carbon dosing along with elbow grease won the day. No little ball of chaeto in a tiny sump chamber lit with a PAR38 bulb was going to eliminate the invasions I had. That's for sure. In my case, I wish I had used GFO for the beginning. But that's just me.
I did ignore the perspective of the OP which sounds like he's just starting a tank in the conventional manner & wanted to know if he should export PO4 from the get go with GFO. It's a great question for somebody looking to avoid algae hassles. The answer "it CAN wait until you see high phosphates or the algae outbreak" is certainly legitimate. But I would still suggest monitoring PO4 with a high resolution test or meter early. Understanding your tank's trends is invaluable. There's no rule that says you have to wait for an algae Armageddon to begin a serious export program. If plumbing a $50-$75 reactor early is no big deal, then go for it. Especially if you already know you're likely to have high PO4 because of leaching rock or the presence of big power pooping herbivores. There is no one size fits all answer here however.
The advice I offered was coming from my perspective of what I'm doing for my next tank, which would be a combination of my current live rock with corals and new rock; probably some dry & some live. 6 years in the hobby has been enough time to know that my new tank will be fed enough to need some serious PO4 export, and I'll have GFO in the toolkit for sure. For me, it's just too easy & cheap not to do so and the best time to plumb it is during the initial build. Even if it's utility is eliminated with my planned ATS, I want the option available.
I spent the first year or two keeping lots of hungry NPS/LPS corals relying only on water changes & the hope things would settle down. I experienced wave after wave of pest algae including GHA, Valonia (bubble) & Bryopsis. I was contemplating a tear down, but if it came back I probably would have left the hobby. GFO & carbon dosing along with elbow grease won the day. No little ball of chaeto in a tiny sump chamber lit with a PAR38 bulb was going to eliminate the invasions I had. That's for sure. In my case, I wish I had used GFO for the beginning. But that's just me.
I did ignore the perspective of the OP which sounds like he's just starting a tank in the conventional manner & wanted to know if he should export PO4 from the get go with GFO. It's a great question for somebody looking to avoid algae hassles. The answer "it CAN wait until you see high phosphates or the algae outbreak" is certainly legitimate. But I would still suggest monitoring PO4 with a high resolution test or meter early. Understanding your tank's trends is invaluable. There's no rule that says you have to wait for an algae Armageddon to begin a serious export program. If plumbing a $50-$75 reactor early is no big deal, then go for it. Especially if you already know you're likely to have high PO4 because of leaching rock or the presence of big power pooping herbivores. There is no one size fits all answer here however.
