salinity/conductivity probe

septicdeath

New member
So, I really wanted to monitor my salinity remotely, even more importantly, I wanted to be able to get the precise measurements that I was told the lab grade probe from neptune could provide.

I opened up the pm2 and installed it all, and mounted the probe into the area of my sump where the water level just never fluctuates (by design) and started mapping my salinity in ppm. I've been told that the probes are very accurate and dont drift, so even without calibration, its going to be consistant, so I let it run a day or so and watched it bounce exactly when the temperature bounced, temp went up, cond went up, temp went down, cond went down, eventually I learned that when measuring at ppm, that 1 point isn't too much re; specific gravity, and now I am measuring at much more accurate levels.

So I calibrated the probe and watched it graph for a week or so, and everything was VERY stable, I got my auto top off online and programmed the apex to monitor ph (since my top off has kalkwasser) and my salinity as emergency controls and let it fire off some top off. I sent the top off into the same area of the sump as the probe on purpose, but I was suprised that the 10 second tunze osmolator dump did nothing for salinity, as everyone that owns one, knows when you give it power, it pumps for 10 seconds everytime, although I dont expect this to do anything to a larger tank, since I was dumping it right next to the probe in a 13 gallon sump, I expected something?.

I grabbed 2 cups of pro reef, and tossed it into the overflow of the tank (no animals in the tank at this time) and the salinty driffted from 35.1 to 35.3 (this is a 50 gallon tank), so I added 3 more cups of salt, and it went up .1 or .2 again, total reading 35.5. I pulled out the refract and read 42 in the sump and 38 in the tank. but the apex still said 36. I pulled the probe from the holder and swirled it around, and bam, the device said 42 like it should.

All that, long winded, I know, but details, details, details.

Im counting on keeping my animals alive based on this device, I expect it to be a little better than this, I understand that if 6 months had gone by, or a year, and algea or something were all over the probe, but were talking 2 days old, in a tank that has no life in it, and just getting everything all tested (at the time of this discovery at least).

Shouldnt one expect more accuracy from these probes? How often should you pull them and shake them in the water? I've tried to think of the best area to place them, and right now, I have moved them to the skimmer area where all the bubbles are, figuring they may clean the tips and keep them less obstructed? I only put them there, because after the first shake and change, 3 days later, I did it again, to go from 35.4 to 36.8 - 37.0 in a few hours, I didnt compare to the refractmeter this time, it was too late at night, but I moved the probe holder (ph, temp, conductivity) from the pump area of the sump to the skimmer area of the sump. any comments?


thanks
 
Two things come to mind to check...

1) are you using temperature compensation for the probe &

2) any air bubbles in the sump?
 
Thats the funny thing, I originally had the probe in the last chamber, farthest away from skimmer bubbles, and this is where the shake it out and the reading reacted and started correctly reading (or matching my refractometer at least). I thought it was starting to do it again, so I moved it to my skimmer baffle thinking that maybe the bubbles would keep it cleaner? So far it seems as though its staying consistant with my refractometer now that it is "in" the baffle for the skimmer?

Im not using temperature compensation for the probe, checking online it seems that its so minimal within a maintained 2 degrees (77-79),, of course, I did notice that if your fluctuating from 74-80 (which the apex weather chart seems to imply happens in the wild, that the 6 degree difference is a little more noticeable, however, I dont intend to let my temperature drift through the real changes it would take from winter to spring to summer to fall, etc, etc.

With that all said, I suppose I really only had to shake it out once, maybe the fine sand substrate I used in my center baffle (refegium) could have gotten to it the first time, and I simply had to clear it out, Im guessing your going to recommend putting it into the baffle with as little bubbles as possible, which I suppose makes sense for my ph probe as well, since I only have 1- 4port holder and everything has to go into the same area.
 
Yeah, I had the one drift (it was continuing to read a specific number while I was adding salt and knew it should be climbing), once I shook it out, and the reading came up to where it should be, I've just been sitting worried and afraid to trust the reading. So far so good, but what good is it to have a probe that you have to check against a refractometer every day cause you dont trust it. So far, the numbers have matched, so I just think that for whatever reason, on a new unit, maybe after being in the system from NOT being in a system, it gets a first coating or something, and my shaking it off, took care of it for me. I've read that a swishing/cleaning should be performed every month or so just to be safe.

Please keep me updated on if you experience any other drifts from swishing or moving the probe, I'm hoping that I only experience one and you as well do, that way we can not worry moving forward.


-John
 
.BUMP...

After running the last couple of weeks, and mostly messing with a ORP LAB Grade probe that was shipping to me dry and me not trusting it wasn't damaged, but thats another story.

Anyways, I thought that the Conductivity probe was doing okay, no drastic changes like I got originally, so I thought I would clean the probes. I simply brushed them softly with a brush and returned them to their holders in the return portion of my sump. Values didn't change. A couple of hours later values still in same range, thought all was good.

I noticed my fudge light didn't come on and started messing with it, I had to pull the probes to get the fudge wiring out of the cabinet, this was simply pulling it out of water, rerouting it and returning it to the holder. I swished them in the sump water before setting them back in, and my salinity jumped from 35.1 to 37.4 (****). So I went to get my quick salinity tester, which I realized I loaned to someone, so I got the refractometer out, and it read 37 as well.

I guess I'm just going to have to manually test every day to compare against the neptune, but why the hell did I pay all that money for the pm2 and the probe, if I cant even trust it, not even for gentle swings?

Has anyone else had these issues? Is it just me? Do I need to buy another probe? Maybe I need to move the probe to the display tank, against the corner of the overflow in the tank? or in the over flow? I really cant assume that at close to $200.00 bucks for the ability to measure conductivity that more people are not complaining if mine (and the other two in the thread) are the norm?

If you have any placement, husbandry, any suggestions on how to gain some reliability with this device?

Thanks in advance.
 
My probe is about 18 months old now, and I haven't seen the problem you've described. I have mine in a high-flow area at the corner of my sump, but in a location farthest from any bubble formation.

Since the probe measures conductivity, and air isn't terribly conductive, air bubbles will cause the problems you've described, so perhaps different placement if that's what you're seeing.
 
I have a 3 chamber sump, fudge in the center, input/skimmer in far left. Bubble traps from chamber 1 to 2, and from 2 to 3. I have a Tunze 1073.50 in chamber 3, my pH, ORP, Conductivity probes are magnetically clip mounted against the interior wall between chambers 2 and 3 with probes hanging into pump chamber, with the intake of the Tunze less than 2 " away from the probe tips, I thought having the pump pull water from adjacent to the probes might keep them cleaner, and less prone to bubbles. I dont have any bubbles making it past the first bubble trap and through the cheato in the 2nd chamber/fudge area.

From what I can think of, this seems to be the most logical location for them, I have a 2nd temp probe and 2nd ph probe up in the Display tank hidden in the inside corners of the center overflow, they hide pretty well, was thinking of moving the conductivity probe to the corner (above the temp since its fully submerged). My temps from sump to display can be off by .25 with pH can be off by .10 (always lower in the display on PH, so Im pretty sure thats the probe).

The main thing is, to continue to hear from others that they dont experience the probe slowly drift, and that the swishing of the probe (I just pull it out of the holder, and pretend I am stirring the sump with it like a stick) doesn't cause it to change by as much as 3 PPT.


Fellow RC's, please post your experiences, I'd like to know if I am alone or not.

Thanks
 
I really cant assume that at close to $200.00 bucks for the ability to measure conductivity that more people are not complaining if mine (and the other two in the thread) are the norm?

Just to be clear Septic, don't count me in as having a similar problem. Mine was purely a location issue and was solved when I moved the probe. It's been rock solid ever since.
 
Thanks, to be honest, Im happy this this is just happening to me, because at least then, I can look forward to getting it fixed.
 
Yeah I also don't have these problems. Maybe try tossing it in the DT for a couple of days and see what happens? At least then you'll know if it's a location issue or a probe issue and you can proceed accordingly.
 
I grabbed a snippit of my graph, at first look, one would think that evaporation could be playing a role, however, I have a Tunze ossmolator, and water levels stay constant, the only time fresh ro/di has been added (changing the volume of water in the tank) is labeled on the graph. I didn't want an additional gallon of water in the tank, which could effect the salinity based on evaporation since an extra gallon was in the tank, so about 24 hours later, I removed 1 gallon of water, right before I decided to recalibrate yet again.

Aqua_Controller_Apex.jpg



I'm going to relocate it to the display tank on a new probe holder I got, I happened to have 2 temp probes and 2 lab grade ph probes, I have these mounted in the sump and the display tank and they read the same, so I'll try moving the conductivity probe to the DT.
 
The shift in the graph is 34 ppt to 37.4 ppt (the graph doesn't show it that high, but I remember seeing it on the day I choose to recalibrate, I havent taken the time to look up exactly what the swing of 3 PPT is, which I just did, maybe thats my problem, that 3 PPT is really NOTHING and should be expected. A salty zoo calc says .002 = 3 ppt, hmmm, I almost feel like a idiot for stressing over this amount. Of course, I expect the probe to stay consistant, but .002, well, I think maybe I should be apologizing for wasting everyone's time, and just expect it to to be shifting a little. I suppose this is just a case of having too much information. As before the apex, I dont think I would have even considered a swing of 1.024 to 1.026 to be a big deal, and before the Osmolator ATO, daily evaporation would most likely swing it even larger....

Ha Ha Ha, too funny, still I'll keep the thread open, as someone may come along and tell me why the agitation of the probe over a single day or two is making it rise/lower, or should it be expected.
 
That's actually a pretty big swing. From past experience, I'd estimate that I would have to dump in like 10% of my total system volume in fresh water to move the reading 1.028 to 1.025. Just a rough guess, but you get the idea.

My PM2/Conductivity setup is reliable enough that it grabs my attention if it's off by 0.1 PPT. So I don't think you should feel like an idiot.
 
Thanks, I took the advice and moved it to my display tank, and it jumped to > 55 ppt when I moved it, it settled down to 40 ppt, so I tried to recalibrate it, and this time, it wouldn't calibrate, it just kept failing. So I think I have done all that I can to try to save this probe, I got it Feb 15th (4 days too long to send back to MarineDepot, so now I think I have to try to work with Neptune Customer service). I'll let everyone know how that goes, as I have read mixed reports on both DA and Neptune Systems warranty/replacement services.

Thanks again.
 
This is just a long shot but have you check with a volt meter to see if you are getting some kind of stray voltage in your tank? maybe the probe is picking that up and when you grab the probe you essentially ground it, discharging the voltage?
 
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This is typically the part where someone jumps in and warns you that when suspecting stray voltage in the tank, not to inadvertently create a path to ground via your person.

I have nothing else going on at the moment, so I'll be that guy.
 
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