sandbed

[scooters reef]

Nevermind. You obviously choose not to read either the link, or what I stated. I didn't say I had to test for nitrites. I said we are all concerned about nitrite reduction, but now have rock, etc to handle it for us. To turn that around, I have no detectable nitrates, so if you have to test for it, then I'm sorry too

Or, if nitrite reduction isn't a concern, take out all your rock and everything else you have that may be helping, THEN worry about it. That would be dumb. So, if it's right to rely on a natural process to reduce nitrites, why discard a means of reducing nitrates? Or, to lump them into one definition that amounts to a refugium, when the term was coined for the express reason of NOT being confused with that?

I'm not saying it's has a place in all systems, or even that all should agree it works. I DO have an issue with it being twisted so anybody else interested has no clue what it's even about. Lump it in with sugar or vodka dosing if you want, but it different than a refugium, AND well covered in many publications recently. I tried a Google search and found more references that I even thought I'd find.

 

[RCS]

I don't worry about nitrite either, generally, but it's definitely an integral part of the nitrification process! Without nitrite being processed into something (normally nitrate during nitrification), we'd all have some serious problems. Albeit nitrite is usually less of a problem in a marine tank, it can still be a problem.

The denitrification process is done by bacteria and microbes as well, which are still invertebrates.

I'm just being nitpicky is all. A DSB in a tank, refugium or remote will all have similar qualities to them, and if done right, all should aid in nitrate reduction. Granted, the ultimate goal of a refugium may be to propagate the fauna that a tank generall feeds on, but technically speaking a refugium is a place that is a "refuge", no DSB needed or required if other needs are met; it's simply an area with no predation on the inhabitants. My refugium in my old 155 bow was a 20g Rubbermaid with a wad of chaeto and a sponge. The 'pods and mysids that came out of that thing was amazing to behold. Heck, some hair algae I had growing inside my overflows housed an awesome amount of 'pods.

If you're planning on using a remote DSB for the ultimate purpose of denitrification, you better hope there is invertebrate life growing in there, otherwise it's really just a sandbox with no purpose. :lol:

 

[RCS]

LOL, I think we're taking this way too seriously.

Scooter, I agree with you. My only point was that invertebrate life makes denitrification possible, and you'll get that in a proper DSB any way you slice it.

It's good to discuss things like this though, as it can help people reading it (or confuse the heck out of them...). Heck, to be honest, I rarely, if ever, test for anything other than Ca. Sometimes Mg...ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? Nope. pH, alkalinity? Nope. Certainly not things like Iodine and Phosphates.

 

[scooters reef]

LOL, Sorry RCS, wasn't you I was referring to You made a comment, and I took it only that you were referring to a DSB in a refugium or main tank, and read nothing else into it and was hardly offended.

But, for YOU I'd still like to disagree on a more friendly basis that a sand bed IS still effective with no fauna if set up correctly, is even easier to maintain, yet in exchange has no other benefit beyond denitrification where DSB does. LOL, hopefully I'll never need it, but if that's the ONLY desired result, why would any fauna help at all? If anything, it would only extend how far down oxygen will go and is what you wouldn't want.

 

[jandlms]

Thanks Fred. I agree that some (even myself at times) take their views way too seriously.. We all just need to learn to recognize the signs. As for twisting meanings and definitions well, I'll let my MSc in aquatic sciences continue to keep my tank percolating along nicely.
Speaking of testing (or lack of it) what are you testing with for Calcium (brand name?)?

 

[jandlms]

My only disagreement with your premise is that you stated earlier that a sand bed is just that no inverts are needed. My argument (probably poorly stated) is that even the remotest sandbed is going to get and have a tremendous population of inverts (Not even counting the bacteria) which wwill in the long run be a beneficial source of food for Bryan's tank.
As for "YOU".
My name is Jon. My screen name is jandlms. Feel free to use either. it makes me feel special.

 

[scooters reef]

LOL

Ok, sorry Jon. Was trying to make it clear to RCS I wasn't responding to him, since he thought I was, so saw no reason to specify further. Didn't mean to go so far as to offend just because I felt so, but most obviously did.

As for your point, I agree, in most typical applications because it has to serve multiple purposes. I also said ANYONE could disagree if it would work or not otherwise, so feel free. Even better in fact. It was what I took as snide responses that irritated me. If I mistook them, then my apologies.

As for the premise that sand can't result in NNR without any inverts, have you read the link yet? Just for a basis of comparison. Not that he is always right, but I tend to listen to Calfo in most cases. The thread is a mess though, so I warn you, plan on a long time to read it all. You will also find many posting asking about what you are stating.

I think what 99% of it breaks down to is, a confusion due to lack of established terminology (Like, what exactly IS a RDSB, as opposed to a DSB, or refugium) and what the goal is. Even if Anthony Calfo is correct, the RDSB is useless for anything but NNR, so pointless for someone that wants that along with a full refuguim, has the space, and wants the other benefits to use it.
We also already established what Bryan is doing, what he needed, and I'm pretty sure were all almost 100% in agreement.

Otherwise, I'll try to make you feel special from now on

 

[jandlms]

No trust me there will be no doubt when I attempt to be snide.
As for Calfo's work, I agree with most of it and in general he could use a good assistant to clean up some of his work. It is tedious at times to pour through it all. I much more enjoy reading his books where an editor has gone through much of the writing before it hits the general public. Calfo knows what he wants to get across to us but I think he has a tough time getting/talking down to my level (somewhere between knuckle dragger and copepod).
Godd night y'all. Time for bed.