seagrass tank update

Samala

New member
For those who are interested I posted another update on my little ten gallon seagrass tank featuring the lovely stargrass. ;) Heres a link, you could always access by clicking the little red house in my posts and going to the marine side.

Week two

Just as a little bit of bizarre trivia - I went through some old academic journal papers on the culture of stargrass and came across a professor somewhat local to me that was growing them on an agar based medium in still seawater at relatively low light. I guess this plant is tougher than I thought.

But, that wasnt what got me doing this.. :eek1: In part of the culture medium she was using filtered, sterilized coconut water (as in crack a coconut in half and drain the milk inside and use that) as a source for nutrients and reported that the coconut water mixes had larger and healthier plants than those without it using chemical nutrient sources. Yeah.... makes you wonder how on earth she got that idea.

>Sarah
 
great job! can't wait to see it in person. i'm finishing up grad school and will be moving to philly this june some time. i've been talking to bill chamberlain about setting up a similar tank, though on a larger scale than yours.

-ben
 
Oceanus - thanks! I try to make it mean something. And pina coladas? :lol:

Ben - Finishing grad school? I'm envious.. I just started. PhD's take too long in my opinion! I'm hoping for the four and a half year supercharged trip. By June the tank should look really cool - I'd be happy to show it off then. I also wanted to setup a bigger tank, but it just wasnt in the cards. :) Philly's a great city - good choice!

>Sarah
 
That is looking great Sarah! :thumbsup: I love that stargrass :) If it does well for you and you feel like getting rid of some, I might know where you can send a piece ;)

Where did you get the KNO3 and what brand of nitrate test kit are you using?



BTW...I want to be a book on conservation genetics!!! :D
 
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Lol.. I am about two seconds shy of falling asleep in that picture.. roomie snapped it and the flash scared me senseless. ;)

I am cheating on both counts with the KNO3 and the nitrate testing. I deal with both through laboratory equipment and resources (shhh dont tell my prof). However, the Seachem nitrate tests are pretty accurate stacked against the lab equipment.. so I think I'll just use that in the future. Their iron
test was pretty close too.

For KNO3 you could try using Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen - thats all the product is made of except for a bit of urea for nitrogen in an ammonium form (doesnt raise your ammonia level in the tank though.) Or you could DIY your own mix of KNO3 by ordering the stuff through www.gregwatson.com - check out the PMDD (poor man's dupla drops.. an old freshwater planted fertilizer mix) store. That option would be much cheaper in your case I think. A pound seems like a lot to start with though. Course with 180 gallons or more to be fooling around with a pound may go kinda fast!

Seems pretty crazy to be adding nitrate.. but if you put a lot of light (the sun!) over a tank with a lot of plants.. and dont feed them what they need.. then nuisance algae tends to show up.

>Sarah
 
Oh and Ben, I dont think I got an email... maybe try a PM? My email likes to kick out some people as spam.. I'll look for it. ;)
 
Nice site Sarah.

I am curious about the flow requirements for some of these seagrasses. In one part of your site you state that grasses grow best in higher flow conditions. In the seahorse pages you talk about H zostera comes from low flow environments.

If the horses exist in seagrass beds (=high flow??) then how can they be low flow animals? Is it that they inhabit "dead" or low flow areas within grass beds?

I have always been curious about this apparent contradiction.

Fred.

P.S. Saw some H. zostera in a lfs here in Canada a couple of weeks ago. Wow are they small.
 
low flow vs. high flow

low flow vs. high flow

Yep, its quite a contradiction. We, as aquarists, dont know really if dwarf seahorses like low flow in the wild.. they just seem to do best in low flow setups in aquariums. All seahorses seem to like low flow because they like to stare down their prey for a few seconds before they attack it - hard to do if its whizzing by your head.

The grasses however, definitely do like flow and lots of it.. the more flow I direct over the grass the taller it seems to get. That link has been published and I can see the effects of the powerhead in grass in my tank thats in a low spot and in a high spot.

The papers dont say anything about plant density in high vs. low flow and thats a question I wish I could answer. Ie: In high current do the plants grow taller and exist more spaced out.. or do they grow taller and form thicker beds? On my collection page in the website there is a shot of shoal grass (not a great picture, you'll have to trust me) and you can see that the plants are kinda spaced out. That was in the extreme shallow area. In deeper water the shoal grass was denser. Is it because of flow or is it something like disturbance by humans or wave action breaking the bed apart or.... ??

Back to the flow: I suspect the plants like high flow because more nutrients travel to them and some papers speculate that the movement of the water breaks up gradients around the leaves of necessary molecules like NPK and CO2. As the tide moves in and wave action brings in water the overall effect of all the seagrass beds together is to dampen the flow rate. They also trap dirt and algaes and other things as the water carries it over and through the beds.

Here's my theory: Think about the profile of a single grass bed in a single band in cross section. You'll have sand on either side and the grass growing in the center forming a nice rounded bulge. As water moves into the shallows from the sea the water will move into this bulge of seagrass. If its a thick established bed then some water will move through the leaves of the grass.. but the majority of it will be redirected over the top of the bed. Kind of like running into a semi permeable wall. I dont know how much of it will flow over the top, its just a theory at the moment, say 50% of what should be going through the bed if the water is hitting a nice big bed of turtlegrass.

This effectively compresses more water into a smaller space (the area above the bed) and accelerates it - the well known venturi effect. This would create an area of higher flow above the bed and lower flow within the bed. I think this is a possible explanation for having different flow preferences between the plants and animals.

Also.. in my latest Scientific American there was an article (Klimley, Richert, Jorgensen) on pelagic fish movements in the Gulf of CA and how large multi-species assemblages of fish would just appear from 'nowhere' at the underwater sea mounts. The authors speculated that the sea mounts became oasis in a virtual undersea desert due to the venturi effect. Lots of water from the surrounding ocean was being pushed over the sea mounts in high flow rates resulting in lots of plankton. Zooplankton concentration were increased by the venturi effect and the zooplankton was retained by other tidal properties over the sea mounts. More low-level trophic members means more high-level trophic members like snapper, amberjack, dolphinfish and scalloped hammerheads.

Maybe in a grass bed more plankton reaches it because of the venturi effect and the plankton are retained by sinking into the bed itself or clinging to the leaves.. or.....

Anywho, that's my theory. I may look at this later and want to smack myself but, hey, I can always write a retraction and claim insanity. :D

I really liked that question Fred!

>Sarah
 
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Very good information Sarah. I was considering the flow issue and I really dont want to buy anymore pumps. Right now I have a 1200 GPH pump that leads to one nozzle in the tank. I was thinking about hooking this pump up to two surge tanks (one on each side of the display). One will be a 19 gallon and the other a 10 gallon. I noticed this method was used at the Waikiki aquarium. Having two sizes of tanks on opposite sides gives random surge action. The tank would probably go through cycles of no flow for between 30-45 seconds, but then have massive amounts of flow for an equal amount of time. Your info has almost convinced me this is what I need to do. :)
 
Hmm.. I think the surge idea is a good one. But are you staging the surge from either side? IE, back and forth motion like tide coming in and tide going out? Or both directions at the same time resulting in a lull? I think I would lean towards a staggered approach so you would see that beautiful swaying motion in the grass. ;)

>Sarah
 
back and forth causing a swaying motion motion in the grass is what i'm planning with an oceansmotions 4-way. i would set it up to have the current coming from one end of the tank at once, then switch to the other end of the tank.
 
Sarah, i'll have 2 surge tanks. One will be 19 gallons and one will be 10 gallons (on opposite sides of the 180 display). Flow into both surge tanks will be the same. Since they have different volumes, the tanks may be emptying at the same time or at different times. It will be a very random process giving many different circulation patterns. :)
 
Ahh, got it. My brain doesnt process mechanical stuff as well it does other things.. Dont tell my Dad though, he's a mechanical engineer and will be upset all his lessons on cars and plumbing and such have gone to waste. ;)

So a totally randomized flow, interesting. It'll be neat to see it in action. I wonder what the fish think when currents come from all sorts of directions at any given time.

>Sarah
 
Wow, I got the phd answer on flow! :p

I remember doing reading on fresh water aquatics years ago and discussions of boundry layers around leaves. As I remember it there were two issues: removal of waste buildup, access to nutrients absorbed by the leaves. I also remember reading something about amonia/amonium interfering with the uptake of certain nutrients. No/low flow around aquatic plant leaves aleviates all kinds of problems.

I think I will ask Eric Borneman about flow in seagrass beds. He has actually done some diving above grass beds.

I agree with your speculation on flow in and around seagrass beds. Sorta like hanging out in the woods on a windy day. You get a nice breeze in the woods while the wind is blasting through all the open areas.

I know that everyone thinks that horses don't like flow, but I don't think it is anything more than speculation. I suspect they will do fine with more laminar flow: lots of volume, not to much velocity.

This is what I am setting up for my current seahorse tank. I will have a 40g refugium flowing back into my 40g horse tank, but the overflow will be designed to return the flow over the entire width of one side of the tank so that the flow is more evenly distributed.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to get some seagrasses into Canada without paying an arm and a leg for permits.

Fred.
 
No/low flow around aquatic plant leaves aleviates all kinds of problems.
No flow or low flow? Really? If you can remember where you read it I'd like to see it. In freshwater people do not blast their plants with lots of flow usually because too much water disruption means that CO2 gets thrown out of the water quickly and its a big limiting factor for FW plants. But some movement is necessary to break up that boundary layer.

I think I will ask Eric Borneman about flow in seagrass beds. He has actually done some diving above grass beds.
Diving above grass beds is fun when they're deep, I've seen Halophila and Thalassia growing in the Exumas just a few feet from coral heads with lots of flow. The grasses were also in motion. Jawfish seemed to like the intermediate area between the grass beds and the coral. I remember one dive that basically became a drift snorkel over turtle grass leading into a mangrove/lagoon area with lemon sharks. We werent rocketing over the bottom, but still quite strong movement in the water. I didnt do any kicking. The fish on the bottom in the grass didnt seem to be fighting to stay in place.. a big southern stingray was also gliding.

Poor Dr. Borneman.. I wonder how many questions he gets each day? I just sent him email requesting he tell me which of his labmates works on genetic influence on coral stress tolerances.

Your analogy of a breeze through a forest is perfect. :)

I know that everyone thinks that horses don't like flow, but I don't think it is anything more than speculation. I suspect they will do fine with more laminar flow: lots of volume, not to much velocity.
I could not possibly agree more with this.. I also think its speculation and I think they need lots of turnover.. they just dont like high velocity. Theres a difference between the two that isnt usually commented on with SH tanks. Maybe I'll edit parts of my website to reflect that..

Your return idea - dispersing the volume over a larger area - is great.

>Sarah
 
eric will tell you that good flow in a seagrass tank is beneficial (we've ocrresponded about this previously). i've seen seagrass grow in prolific beds both in low and high flow situations in belize. the grasses in the more stagnant, low flow areas had much more growths on their leaves than out near the barrier reef, which had high current.

in my previous experience growing thalassia in aquaria, you need at least moderate (subjective, i know) flow to prevent unwanted algal growth on the blades as one reason (it also looks neat). trimming off dead material helps also. i used to leave the dead material on the sandbed for breakdown and eventual reuptake by new growth.

another to key success is a nutrient-rich substrate (sarah has the most ideal approach) and a method of mantaining the proper elements in the substrate long-term. long-term will be the difficulty in aquarium. supplementation either through collection of more natural sediment from grass beds or artificial means will be necessary. and as with any deep sandbed, a very healthy population of detritivores is essential. we all know what happens when a DSB isn't set up properly.

lots of organics in the water column, ime, was problematic since thalassia actually gets most of its nutrients from the substrate. excess organics in the water column combined with low kelvin, high intensity lighting and poor water flow is a recipe for an algal bloom, particularly dinoflagellates. i had this happen in my inexperience, and the bloom smothered my grasses.

good luck, folks. i can't start my tanks back up for another year or so. i'm living through your experiences at the moment, so make them good :D
 
Hee hee... I should read my posts over before posting.

Low/no flow CAUSES a lot of problems...

Wish I was a little closer to Florida. Your dives over seagrass sound cool.

I will let you know how the distributed flow works out.

Fred.
 
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