seahorse help needed

Z

Zoa

New member
Hello!

I have 3 seahorses, 2 females and one male.

There in in a HOB Refugium attached to a 75 gal tank. Not much going on in the 75-- was considering a frag tank.

There is the white crates blocking off a free swim to the intake and return. There is also coarse padding next to the crate. Well, one of the pads loosened and one of the sea horses was thrown into the 75 gal. I found her under a rock to keep out of flow. On one of her sides she has a white spot where it looks like some of the dark brown outer layer may have come off.

She has been returned to the fuge and seems stressed, not moving much.

I do not want her to get an infection, and die, and/or spread the infection to the other two seahorses.

I did some reading here, seahorse.org and wetwebmedia. Most stuff talked about care and disease.

I am going to syphon 10 gal of the water into a temp. hosp tank. What medication should I use to help her? I saw somewhere that betadine could be used in a pinch--but not sure how much, etc....

The seahorses are wild caught--had for about a month. I do not want the medicine to kill her either. Any suggestions on what kind of medication/dosing I can use?

Please help....thanks
 
you can wash the area with a dilution of 1 part betadine to 5 parts water. hikari also makes biobandage which is neomycin based, in a pinch you can also apply human neosporin (also neomycin based). i'm a little reluctant to recommend a full 10 day course of antibiotics when she may be able to recover on her own. just to be prepared though do you have anything on hand? if so what? she's probably quite stressed out now so i would work on keeping her as stress free as possible, low lighting, all the food she can eat (add beta glucan to her feed).
 
thanks for responding!

I did put mysid dipped in garlic--she did not eat it--will try again later.

I have the 10 gal ready--but she is still in the fuge. I did not want to cause her more stress and thought it best to get some input from the network here.

I have betadine available. when you say bath, how long would you suggest dipping her and how many times per day, etc?

I do have the neosporin cream also.

I know that seahorses are fragile so I do not want to wait till it is too late. As I said--I don't want the cure to cause the death either. Should I do something tonight?

what is beta glucan? is this found at a LFS and if so is it called under another name?

thanks..............
 
for the betadine wash all you have to do is create the solution and flush it over the wound. it's not a "bath" but more of a flush over the affected area - be careful not to get it in her snout or gills. if it was a wound to the tip of the tail you can soak the tip for a bit. you can also use an eye dropper, small plastic container, anything that you can moderately control the flow and direction of the solution. some advocate flushing three times a day, i know you said you've only had her a month and since she's been through so much she may not tolerate being handled that much. see how she does with the first wash. you could also try putting some neosporin on the wound tonight.

beta glucan is found at health food stores and some grocery stores like whole foods, it's believed to be an immunostimulant. i gut load live feeder shrimp with it along with chlorella or spirulina, naturose, etc. i only feed live food so getting stuff into the horse is a little easier for me. soak the frozen as best you can and hopefully we can get a little extra in her.

for antibiotics a combination of neomycin and triple sulfa is generally recommended. i've used baytril and florfenicol in the past but i administer that via injecting feeder shrimp. recently, i've seen baytril baths recommended but don't know if you can get your hands on that since it's precription only.

the neomycin/triple sulfa combo is a 10 day course. while the triple sulfa is usually available at most LFS, the neomycin is not and will have to be ordered. i forgot to look at your location but biosol is a liquid form of neomycin that can be found at many feed stores and also purchased at seahorsesource.com.

do you have Furan2?

maybe dan or another will chime in shortly and offer some more advise. since you don't have any antibiotics on hand, just do the flush and apply neosporin and see how she is in the morning. they're actually remarkably strong fish who just need a little extra attention.

ETA: seahorsesource has something called Wound Control that works great on these things and it's pretty inexpensive. i would also have you consider getting a cannula and syringe in case you need to tube feed her.

if you can get a picture of the injured area and post it that would be great.

personally i would transfer her to a QT tank with fresh, aged SW. my thinking is she has an open wound and is now susceptible to a number of potential pathogens that are normally in the water that they can usually fight off when healthy. if you don't have fresh, aged SW just use what you have and make her as comfortable as possible (fake hitch, etc.). if you choose to use antibiotics right away i'd also start mixing up a whole lot of water for those water changes. the antibiotics will knock out your biofilter so monitor water quality like a hawk.
 
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If your ordering from Seahorsesource.com anyways, I would get there Neo3 med which is a combination of the neomycin and triple sulpha at seahorse appropriate dosages. JMO

What is the current tank temperature?

Nanolurker is giving you some great advice here. I suggest you take it.

Best of Luck. :)
 
thank you so much for the detailed info. I very much appreciate your help.

I live in Long Island, NY...do not have Furan2. biosol--feed stores--as in farming? I might be out of luck here in NY.

I do have a syringe--larger one that I can use to drip any mix over her if needed. I know I can get a small one at a pharmacetical supply store....I have not seen her eat today. soaked frozen mysid in garlic x-treme.

I read some post somewhere that someone did this whole forced feeding that involved sedating the seahorse to the point where the seahorse needed to be 'brought back' to life.

Please tell me there is another way to tube feed because I do not think I can do that. How exactly does one safely tube feed the seahorse?

The 10 gal has the same water from the tank..will make a water mix for changes. I already have a concentrated bucket of salt water so it is not fresh salt.

ok--I used the large syringe (size 18 - bought some time ago for aptasia--but sat in a drawer instead). I made the betadine mix and applied a dab of neosporin. I noticed she wasn't grabbing onto anything with her tail......her tail looks deteriorated--with outer layer attached but hanging--like zombie-ish.

I am usually very good at noticing nuances with my fish/livestock and did not notice this earlier as I was concentrating on the spot and she was on the bottom of the fuge. I put some betadine solution the tail. Is this some kind of tail rot -- it just doesn't seem likely that it happened while she was washed into the 75.

She is definitely stressed, not holding onto anything and not eating. I can't do much more tonight. I am afraid to take pics to stress her out more tonight--will try tomorrow. Definitely worried....will post update tomorrow. thanks......
 
how's she doing? it sounds like tail rot :( it's possible she injured it on the trip or maybe while she was shocky under the rock something took advantage of her. lowering the tank temperature to around 68 degrees will help slow down the bacteria. shoot for lowering the tank 2-3 degrees a day.

she's definately gonna need an antibiotic if it's tail rot. the neomycin/triple sulfa combo is preferred here. i don't know if you can swing it financially but if you can see if you can get the Neo3 or the neomycin and triple sulfa asap. fedex saturday delivery isn't cheap and may not be an option. if not, call around to your LFS and see if they carry Furan2, it's readily available at most LFS around here.

has she shown any interest in food today? is she still shocky? by that i mean is she looking around the tank or is she still kind of quiet with minimal eye movement.
 
Hello.....

I am sorry I could not post yesterday.......online technical issues...

I would like to say that I am appreciative of your support, caring and helpfulness. I looked at several websites and read a lot of info, but the info posted here was much more helpful to me.

The 75 gallon tank has 2 mollies that were used to cycle the tank. I just left them there as I hadn't added much. The female is pregnant, so the 2 of them pretty much stick together. The rock in there was cooked--so not unwanted hitchers. Tank also holds 2 hawain featherdusters. I also have a few of those snails that might match the snail issue of the reefkeeping magazine. Not many---but am taking them out as I see them just in case. I have them in other tanks and they seem to be ok.

29 gal sump below. Temperature is about 76-78 degrees.


I used the HOB fuge because the water flow would be much less and would still get the benefit of over 100 gallons of water running.

Thursday night I used a syring to put the betadine/water wash over her one white spot and tail. I put a dab of neosporin over the spot. Later I did see her use her tail--but not muxh. She did not eat. She was put in a 1o gal QT with no direct lighting overhead--just indirect room lighting.

Sadly, she died the next day. I was doubly upset that I could not post yesterday. She had 2 white spots where I saw one initially. Tail did look like it was rotting away.

So--should I QT the reamining seahorses in a 10 gal tank (new-aged water obviously), wait and see? either way---going to get some of the medication you posted asap. This seahorse seemed to become very sick and die quickly. Granted, she may have been traumatized from getting washed into the tank.

I am very upset about this and am concerned for the 2 living seahorses. I just checked up on them (as I am writing this) and they seem ok. No apparent tail rot or spots. but if she had tail rot and it is highly contagious.........

Thanks...........
 
i'm sorry you lost her. i would just keep an eye on the other two and if you see any spots developing, QT and treat then. feed them as much as they will eat :) some things i treat prophyalactically for (worms, protozoa) not a good idea when bacteria are involved. pledosophy has some excellent posts on vibrio. my own belief is that once a external bacterial infection takes hold all kinds of things take advantage of the site - bacteria, protozoa, mold/fungus. they're opportunistic pathogens and are things that, IMO, need to be considered when treating. if you don't have any formalin, i'd add that to your order too.

what species of SH do you have? were they CB or WC? 76-78 isn't bad but you may want to consider lowering it to 72-74 if you can.
 
Thanks for your condolences.

I have wc dark brown seahorses that I bought at the LFS. I was told they were caught in the Great South Bay, which is the body of water between Long Island and Fire Island (NY).

I have kept the direct lights off so the temp should keep at a lower level.


do you recommend a waiting and seeing approach before the QT--or a formalin or penicillin or triple sulfa now in case there was a spread of bacteria?

I tried calling Dan at Seahorsesource.com but he was not available. Three LFS had the triple sulfa--but no neomysin or Neo3.
 
sounds like you have WC erectus :) if you can post a picture of them sometime i'd love to see them. i have one erectus myself, a "southern" one which is different from some of the northern ones. acroboy is in long island and is very, very familiar with seahorses from that area. generally WC's should be QT'd and treated for worms but that's not something i would do with yours at this time. down the road when they've settled in a bit more i can help you with that. right now we want to get the temperature lower and make sure they're eating really well.

i would take a wait-and-see stance for now but others with more experience with tail rot may chime in. i'm always fearful of treating with antibiotics with an asymptomic horse. i will admit i'm a huge, huge, huge fan of massive water changes :) i remember reading calfo once and he advocates them, there's also his mantra "the solution to pollution is dilution" i just subsitute "protozoa/bacteria/organics" for "pollution" ;) just my opinion though.

the neomycin will only be found at dan's place or http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/shopping.html. i'll be honest, i've used the Neo3 but i personally prefer to purchase neomycin and triple sulfa seperately.

i wasn't sure if you had WC or CB which is why i asked about formalin. it can be used as a bath for horses with parasite problems or as a dilute wash over some types of wounds. the furan2 is nice to have on hand, especially if you have WC's since it treats some bacterial, protozoan, and mold/fungal infections. both the formalin and furan2 carry some pretty hefty health warnings though. don't bother with penicillin.

i'd keep trying dan, honestly, he's a great guy and is more than happy to talk to keepers. he has pretty much anything you could ever need to take care of fish and seahorses. i just received a shipment of aquacultured mysid from him earlier in the week. if you talk to him, tell him bridgett says hi :) a couple of good, broad spectrum antibiotics, cannula and syringe, formalin, diamox (PM me on that), and you're good to go. fenbendazole and praziquantel down the road. did i mention they have special needs ;)
 
ok--forgot to mention that the LFS did not have the Furan II either.

I tried to take some pictures, they did not come out well...how does one post their pics on the threads here?

I will pm Acroboy with this thread, thanks.

My seahorses look ok as far as spots, but something is definitely wrong. When I feed them the frozen mysis soaked in garlic--(which they have eaten from day 1), they are not eating it. they look at the food, get close to the food, but do not eat the food.

I will try calling Dan tomorrow, but even if he ships out monday am, I wont get it till tues.

I do have formalin and penicillin. One of my LFS stores I believe has the triple sulfa--whats the best bet till I hook up with the neomysin or neo3?

I have been wary to do something that will cause more stress, but if they are not eating this is not good. was reading other threads on freshwater baths and medications. but 3 days away from the medication seems like it could be too long.....
 
Hello!

I had tried the freshwater bath and used the triple sulfa last night. They seemed somewhat interested in the food, but not enough to eat it and I was afraid to wait too long as it was on the weekend.

I spoke to Dan this a.m. Bridgett--I said hello for you.

I have an overnight Fed Ex delivery due tomorrow. Delivery includes neomysin (already have the triple sulfa so didn't get the neo3), Furan II, some kind of vitamin mat--not 100% sure, cannula/syringe/clove oil if needed (cringe). I really hopes this helps in time....

If I do not see my seahorses eating enough by tomorrow I know I may have to force feed them. Dan said to put a couple of drops in a bucket with the seahorses and wait a few minutes so they are sedate. We talked about Marc's post on Seahorse.org.

Can I use vitamin E capsules instead of cod liver oil...I know they have omega 3's. anything in the iol I need to avoid?

Has anyone had experience in this? What were your results? Any tips you learned the hard way that could help?

thanks....
 
sorry for not getting back to you. still not eating? grrrrr. have you tried live food? very small ghost shrimp or if your fuge has any mysid drop some in there. also, double check your pH, ammonia, and nitrite readings.

as for tube feeding, i've done it several times myself - my hands still shake. i know marc's post on tube feeding was mentioned, so i'll go ahead and post the link http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=10975&hl=force+feeding. i've never been able to get more than .2 - .3 ml in myself. the key is getting the cannula far enough back and tilting the head at the right angle. also make sure you grind the heck out of the gruel and screen it. i use cyclopeeze, frozen mysid, chlorella/spirulina, beta glucan, cod liver or fish oil, and a drop of liquid vitamin. i can't remember if i've used vitamin e, i don't think i have. i also use two containers to revive them - the first is where they go immediately after tube feeding, they'll probably snick while you're holding them and spit some of the food out ( i have one species with clear snouts so it's easy to see when they're full. if the snout is dark you won't be able to tell). then i rinse them in a second container and place them back in the QT tank. i generally hold them for a little bit in the QT tank and put them on a hitch to recover.
 
no apologies--thank you for being right here with me...

current test parameters:
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.25
Salinity 1.21 refratometer

LFS did not have brine. I bought some small ghost shrimp which is survivng the triple sulfa and the seahorses. I will start the neomysin when it arrives tomorrow.

how many days did you let go before you 'force fed'? were both containers a very low salinity mix? do you feed them in the clove oil 'tank' or the 1st container?
 
well some good news--female shrimp ate one--and only one piece of frozen mysid shrimp.....her breathing seems more rapid than the male tho.

still one piece in almost a week...Marc's thread talked about if they didn't eat for about a week--they may not be able to again....I guess I should wait a lil bit longer and see with her...?

male not eating..sticks his nose in the food as if he were cherishing the smell of a bouquet of flowers but did not seem to try to even snick at a piece. won't get the cannula/clove oil till tomorrow so hoping for the best here....
 
both revive/rinse containers are at a lower salinity. the sedation water is mixed right before tube feeding, i mix it in a container and pour some in a shallow bowl ( i use have a pasta bowl because it's shallow and wide). i sedate in the larger container and transfer to the pasta bowl to tube feed. i've read some people tube feed in non-sedated water. i've never tried that it just means you have to work a little quicker since there is no anesthesia in that water. also, if you tube feed you may have to lift their head out of water to get the angle right, don't be too concerned about that. i used to be scared to death about exposing them to air until i took mine to the fish vet (long story) and he goes lifting them out of the water, puts them in a wet towel, examines one side of them, turns them over to look at the other side, tries to get fecal sample, weighs them, and then takes pictures!

get the ammonia and nitrites to zero through a water change. some people report decreased appetites in their horses with ammonia at detectable levels.

i get worried when a new horse doesn't eat for 3 days and won't let them go more than that without tube feeding. they're strange in that if they don't eat for an extended period of time they basically loose the will to do so and start shutting down. it's good that the female ate at least one piece, even sick/stressed horses will generally eat something. get the levels down to 0 and hopefully the male will snick at something soon. i've spent some time in front of my tank yelling at them, "EAT! dang it, EAT". it's incredibly frustrating but all we can do is prioritize and treat one problem at a time. since they're in a QT tank now and haven't eaten much don't be suprised if they start passing white stringy feces.

i wouldn't bother with LFS brine shrimp, way too nasty/dirty. i've never had a horse that would eat the stuff anyway :) don't know if they'd be interested in BBS, mine won't touch that either.

if you have any B12 and the male continues to not eat, add a tiny bit to his mix during tube feeding.

are they still pretty active? swimming, showing any hunting behavior?

also, are they very short snouted erectus? to post pictures you first have to upload them to your gallery, which i think is in My RC, then copy the link and insert as an img in a post.
 
Thanks again...........will do a water change. Since the male hasn't eaten or tried to snick, he will be first in line.

the male is listless--pretty much laying on the bottom of the tank, moves spots on occasions. so he is first on the feeding list tomorrow. what is the right angle of pushing the head back?

While you were yelling at your seahorses--I was watching so closely it could have been a tennis match--between sets....nothing going on...

The female who ate one piece seems stronger and a bit more active. but hey--one piece isn't much--better than nothing as they say.

I have 2 5-gal buckets of aged salt water waiting to go.

The snouts seem short. I will try to post the pics tomorrow.

ohhhhh--but about this fish doctor--you must tell and brighten this sad thread--even if you pm it to me. I will return the favor with a well ahem--mouse doctor..........who woulda thunk.....goodnight.
 
don't worry too much about the exact angle, just ever so slowly and gently tilt his head up, you don't want to force it farther than it will naturally go. have you ever stood looking down on your horses and they tilt their head to look at you at the surface? picture that angle.

i'll tell you about the trip to the vet someday, he's actually seen my three horses :) last time i saw him he removed an infected granuloma (looked like a pimple) from the tail of an erectus i took in. we also did culture and sensitivity tests on the bacteria to figure out the best meds to use. needless to say the horse remembered that hand in tank = not good! he was quite thin and weak when i got him but he's he recovered nicely and is ever so slowly becoming more and more active and putting on weight.
 
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