seahorse help needed

update.....

got the stuff from Dan today--thanks...going to email him.

tried to forcefeed the male today. I think I was too tense this first time and did not get much food into him. he is back in the QT tank...he did revive so to speak but is still as listless as before...no doubt stressed.

did a good water change on the QT and added the neomysin to the triple sulfa dose. hoping for recovery....
 
good job! it's always a stressful event for me, doesn't matter how many times i've done it :) every little bit you get in him is good.

forgot to mention i sent you a PM but don't know if you received my little novella, it gave me a message that your box is full.
 
Thanks --I needed that positive reinforcment!

will look again tomorrow.

will clean out my pm box right now--sorry
 
Sounds like you are fully broken in now, force feeding and everything. How are the horses doing today? Any food you can get in to them is helpful. Keep trying, it sounds like your female is on her way back.
 
thanks.....I am glad I was able to get through the force fed process. Reading info posted here (special thanks to nanolurker for such detailed info) really helped a lot.

Today was mentally a bit easier.....but nothing I ever want to do. I was really hoping that there would be a miraculous recovery......

update on today.....


Force fed male - I felt like I was more sucessful in feeding him today than yesterday....but he still seems very bad...laying on the bottom of the tank, barely moving. has been like this for a couple of days. I do not think he will make it through the night--or even the next couple of hours....

Aside from one piece of mysid shrimp posted previously, female hadn't eaten. did the feeding process with her. she is bigger, but her snout seems narrower and I didn't want to cause further harm. Most or all of the food went through the gills--but I am hoping that this stimulated a desire to eat. She still seems healthy otherwise. might need to get a smaller catheter if they make them.

As per Dan from seahorsesource.com when I paced my order, did the 50% water change (already made), 1 caplet of triple sulfa and 6mL of neomysin.

Aeration--10 gal, HOB filter, 1 airstone, added another tonight. both airstones are closer to the surface so as to not cause the gas bubble issues. also added 2 bioballs where water exits hob filter. bioballs are half in and out of water--not totally submersed. They have been unused for a couple of years.

Is this enough aeration? If not, is there a way to add additional oxygen without creating too much flow?

Is there anything else I can do for the male at this point?
 
drop the airstones down farther into the water or if you're afraid (which i understand but don't be) at least drop the air line down without the airstone. the water needs to be extremely well aerated.

continue to keep an eye on your water perameters. what temp is the tank at now?

keeping my fingers crossed for you.
 
thanks nano.......

good news--female seemed more interested in the food. I think she even snicked 1 in! If only she could convive the male to make a better go at it.....

ok dropped 2 airstones to the bottom. added another to the top. it is amazing what we have in all our tank containers, buckets, etc...is it better with or without airstones?

salinity is 1.22.5 refractometer estimate - where should I be?
temperature is 77 degrees. Is this too cold?

Will test other parameters again tomorrow.

thanks for being here....
 
if you can get your temp down even more do it. we're not sure what strain of bacteria we're dealing with here but some are temperature sensitive so we tend to shoot for 68. really. remember where your horses are from too ;) no more than 4 degrees a day and slowly over 24 hours. don't know what the temp in long island is right now but frozen water bottles work great or my personal favorite - the little ice probe chiller.

as for which is better, airstone or no airstone, don't really know. i've run both without any problems, even ran one of each in a QT tank once (i don't think i had any particular reason to do it, may have only had one at the time). salt spray is always more with those airstones though, i think dan prefers them but i can't remember why at the moment. it's a long shot, but i'm hoping maybe the additional aeration will perk the boy up a little bit. i forgot to ask how is breathing is - is it deep and labored or shallow, rapid or slow?

leave the salinity where it's at for now. unless they're in hypo i keep mine at 1.020. i'll have to check and see, or if someone else remembers pipe in, but i don't think neomycin or triple sulfa is more effective at a lower salinity.

i have so much stuff hidden away in drawers it's scary. still trying to figure out why i have 6 air pumps :eek:

also, in case the male doesn't make it overnight think about PMing or e-mailing Labdoc here or over at seahorse.org to see if he's available to do a necroscopy. i'm a little tired and am headed to bed but i think i may have told you this already and how to preserve him.
 
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great news!!

--male does seem better. perhaps the extra aeration with the meds and feeding has truly helped. I lowered the temp on the heater ever so slightly this am. He is not completely lying on the ground.

tried an early morning feeding... female snicked in and snicked back the food. couldn't tell if she actually kept any.

I reread the thread and did not see info on how to preserve the seahorse. Please let me know. I hope not need the info, but knowledge certainly is power here.....

with the neomysin, do I need to do a 50% change every day for days 2-10?

I will be going to work today and will not be able to watch any progress til early evening.

Enjoy your day!
 
glad he perked up a tad. if you think most of the feed is being spit back out our coming out the gills you may need to put the cannula a little farther back or adjust the head angle slightly. you need to get it past the trigger and gills. you should also start to see something that sort of, kind of, resembles some type of poop.

keep an eye on your pH and if it drops while on the neomycin and triple sulfa use buffer and slowly raise it back up. keep adjusting the heater downward :)

for the neomycin - 50% water change every day and replace 50% of the meds for the full course of treatment.

how big are the horses? can you estimate how long they are from crown to tip of uncurled tail?
 
IMO if you can get the temp lower then do it. 50's are fine, if managable, as long as you can keep it constant. Those seahorses can be found living in the 40's.
 
i agree about going even lower kevin, i just don't think she's going to be able to do that short of keeping her windows open.

as for preserving the horse should anything happen (i think it was in my PM that was eaten by the system): place in a ziplock bag with no water and put in the refrigerator until ready to ship. if you can't ship within 24 hours of death place in freezer. you can also preserve in alcohol but if you use alcohol or freeze he can't do bacterial cultures. he'll provide additional details if he's available (like where to ship).

are they hanging in there?
 
The female is looking pretty good, thanks. She is eating!!

Male looks long and hard at the food, but that is about it. He sometimes looks a bit better--perhaps the medication has helped-but usually lays on the bottom.

As far as temp--the tank doesn't seem to go lower--and actually have thought about putting on the a/c or something--but it would have to be on pretty strong and long to get that low.

how long can a seahorse undergo the clove oil?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8570626#post8570626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoa
how long can a seahorse undergo the clove oil?

20-30 days :rolleyes: i lost track....at least he's looking. he hasn't been on the antibiotics long, hopefully he'll keep perking up.

it was a big concern of mine as well. i experimented with diluting the sedation water - it's a little hard to put half a drop in :) and the amount of time in the sedation water. each horse is different so you have to kind of play around with it. i've read some threads with people who don't sedate at all while tube feeding, i freely admit i'm afraid to try that.

he hasn't snicked at you when you go to get him at "feeding time" has he? scared me half to death the first time it happened to me. i just kept thinking "do that to the shrimp in the tank and i wouldn't have to do this"!
 
Hello...it has been a while. Nano--yes the first time the seahorse snicked at me during feeding it scared me out of my skin...

My seahorses are still alive, and while that may sound pessimistic, I do not mean it that way.

The second seahorse which I thought was a female and doing well is no longer. The seahorse has a huge bubble on the bottom of the body curve. I noticed it floating upside down but did not see the bubble till tonight (I knew this could not be a good thing). Seahorse also has an outside cut or infection that I put neosporin. This I had seen before and I think it doesn't look worse, might be closing a bit. So I thought this was a female but apparently only males have the gas bubble malady. Seahorse cannot swim normally due to the bouyancy of the bubble and mostly floats at the top. I did manage to give it a real good feeding tonight.

I am having trouble logging on to seahorse.org....sent an email.

I called and left a msg with seahourcesource.

So...questions

What is GBD vs EBGD?

How do I treat this and with what kind of medication if it is not too late?

The other seahorse has seemed to lost interest in eating and is quite thin. anything to do about this? If not how many times a day should it be fed?

The other seahorse does not look affected with the bubble. Should I separate it into another tank at this point?

Thank you.......

zoa
 
hi zoa,

i was wondering how they were doing. warned ya about the snicking :) still doesn't prepare you for it though. okay, i'm fighting a cold so bear with me.

The second seahorse which I thought was a female and doing well is no longer. The seahorse has a huge bubble on the bottom of the body curve. I noticed it floating upside down but did not see the bubble till tonight (I knew this could not be a good thing). Seahorse also has an outside cut or infection that I put neosporin. This I had seen before and I think it doesn't look worse, might be closing a bit. So I thought this was a female but apparently only males have the gas bubble malady. Seahorse cannot swim normally due to the bouyancy of the bubble and mostly floats at the top. I did manage to give it a real good feeding tonight.
pictures girl! it sounds like your girl is a boy but let's get a picture to make absolutely certain. don't do this yet but if you want to read up it's good info to have http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/pouchevac.shtml i want to make certain it's a male and that it's actually trapped air in the pouch. where is this cut/lesion located?

What is GBD vs EBGD?
i'll give you the cliff notes version of each and will include PE. PE, pouch emphysema - air is trapped in a male seahorses pouch resulting in positive bouyancy (floating). EGBD, external gas bubble disease - clear, subcutaneous bubbles develop externally on a horse. they are usually seen on the tail but can occur anywhere, usually they look like, well, a bubble, sometimes more like a lump. if severe enough it will affect a horses ability to swim, especially if they're in significant numbers and size on the tail. IGBD, internal gas bubble disease - is a build up of gases in the abdomen. if the horse looks swollen, is exhibiting positive bouyancy, and is not suffering from PE then it's probably IGBD. http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showforum=63

just as an fyi - if the horse appears bloated/swollen and is not gravid or positively bouyant then it's probably edema.

How do I treat this and with what kind of medication if it is not too late?
not to late at all. Pouch Emphysema - do a pouch evacuation, if recurrent a medicated pouch evacuation with diamox. EGBD - diamox bath, 250 mg in 10 gallon tank usually for 3-5 days.

The other seahorse has seemed to lost interest in eating and is quite thin. anything to do about this? If not how many times a day should it be fed?
is he eating at all? this is the male that was treated with the neomycin and triple sulfa right? how long did you treat and how long has he been off antibiotics? did he recover fully? by that i mean, after you stopped the antibiotics, was he his normal self, eating, swimming? are you feeding once or twice a day? since these are wild caughts we're gonna deworm 'em but let me know the answers to the questions above.

The other seahorse does not look affected with the bubble. Should I separate it into another tank at this point?
both horses are currently back in the display tank, right? i'm a little worried about the one with the lesion. what temp are they currently at? seperating them may be necessary in order to treat them but let me see the answers to the questions first.
 
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Thanks Nano, I hope you are feeling better. I could not get through this without you no matter what the results. Your support and information has been priceless. I also very much appreciate those of you who also posted to this thread.

Thank you very much!

Ok--first off--I am fighting with my camera and hope to have some pics tomorrow.

Update on the unknown gender seahorse....I was able to give it a good feeding yesterday, and it actually sank a bit. I did speak to Dan earlier today and he mentioned the air escavation and possibility of 'tickling' the air to get some out if it was a male. The bubble is located right under the curve of the body before the tail.

Today when I returned from work the seahorse was on the bottom. Yesterday the bubble looked like a blister waiting to pop. Today it looks less...hard to describe...mushy and soft so I know there is air in there...So I might have 'tickled' out some air without realizing.

I tried feeding without the clove oil and was unable to, so added the clove oil and the seahorse was unhappy and I did not want to cause more stress to the animal, so I will try again tomorrow.

Lesion is on side of body. Looks like a greyish opening. Looks the same as yesterday. I will try to take some pics tomorrow.

The other seahorse who I first wrote about still does not look good. It still stays on the bottom, doesn't move much, and I haven't seen it eat since I first posted to this thread which I think is over a month ago. Tonight I was able to feed him without the clove oil. I tried this since it was worth a shot not putting the seahorse in a coma if possible. I actually was successful with this seahorse first, and then tried to feed the other seahorse mentioned above. As I said, he is very listless, and will basically only make an effort if I am trying to reach in for feeding time. He stays at the bottom of the tank. The side of this seahorse looks caved in, and makes me wonder if its digestive system is ok. It has stayed alive for a lot longer than I originally expected (knock on wood). I am afraid that it is no longer interested in feeding for itself.

Both seahorses were originally in a CPR HOB fuge attached to a 75 gal with a 29 gal sump. So there was plenty of water dilution.
For medication reasons. they are now in a ten gal tank. HOB filter and air stone, with things to hold onto. Other than the neosporin on the seahorse's lesion, there is no meds in the tank--running carbon. no skimmer. Trying to keep up with water changes as best as possible. I have 3 5-gal buckets ready to go for ghanges.

They were both treated with the triple sulfa and neomycin for a week. Soon after I did a treament, I ran carbon and used formalin--3days every other day in the 10 gal tank.

From what I understand, seahorses do not like to be alone, but I was considering moving the thin seahorse back to the fuge tank in case the lesion or anything else was contagious.

Do you think I should move the seahorse?

Aside from crushed mysid, algae mac and sometimes some cyclopeze, has anyone here tried some liquid seahorse foods?

Is the beta glucan liquid and have you had good results? Dan from SeahorseSource said that it is hard to find real good quality betaglucan and it can be pricey. any recommendations here?

Is neosporin just as good as wound control? I am using the neo 1x a day, is it safe to do more?

Thank you again......see you soon!

zoa
 
The other seahorse who I first wrote about still does not look good. It still stays on the bottom, doesn't move much, and I haven't seen it eat since I first posted to this thread which I think is over a month ago. Tonight I was able to feed him without the clove oil. I tried this since it was worth a shot not putting the seahorse in a coma if possible. I actually was successful with this seahorse first, and then tried to feed the other seahorse mentioned above. As I said, he is very listless, and will basically only make an effort if I am trying to reach in for feeding time. He stays at the bottom of the tank. The side of this seahorse looks caved in, and makes me wonder if its digestive system is ok. It has stayed alive for a lot longer than I originally expected (knock on wood). I am afraid that it is no longer interested in feeding for itself.
has he eaten on his own at all or have you been tube feeding him the entire time?

From what I understand, seahorses do not like to be alone, but I was considering moving the thin seahorse back to the fuge tank in case the lesion or anything else was contagious.
they do pretty well on their own *as i look over at my male in solitary confinement*

Do you think I should move the seahorse?
well, he's been with the other horse with a lesion for a while now so he's pretty much been exposed to whatever it is the horse with the lesion is suffering from. it's possible he wasn't on the antibiotics long enough to kick whatever it was that was originally affecting him. i generally go 10 days minimum, sometimes you need to go a little longer than that.

Aside from crushed mysid, algae mac and sometimes some cyclopeze, has anyone here tried some liquid seahorse foods?

Is the beta glucan liquid and have you had good results? Dan from SeahorseSource said that it is hard to find real good quality betaglucan and it can be pricey. any recommendations here?

Is neosporin just as good as wound control? I am using the neo 1x a day, is it safe to do more?

i personally don't know of anyone who's had success feeding adult horses anything other than mysis(d), possibly krill and sometimes teeny tiny fish. i did have a small female that ate cyclopeeze until she realized it was much easier to eat frozen mysid then those little, itty bitty, red things that occasionally floated her way :)

i haven't been able to get the liquid beta glucan, the company that manufactures it told me it was available here in the u.s. but when i asked where i could purchase it, they never got back to me. this is the powder version and it's quite pricey http://www.zoolife.org/store/home.php?cat=252 until last month my horses were all on live food only so any extra money went to that. i currently just use one from a health store, solgar is the brand.

the Wound Control is hard to find, the company who made it went out of business. it's an old mercuracrome based liquid that is easy to apply, you just wash it over the wound making sure to stay away from snout, eyes, and gills. you can flush the wound with the diluted betadine wash as well. you can apply the neosporin, biobandage, or diluted betadine more than once a day. does the wound appear to be healing at all?

here's what i'd like to recommend. since the thin horse seems to be in the worst shape we can try one round of deworming and see how he does. normally you need to treat with a couple of different dewormers as each is generally specific to a certain type of worm (nematode, cestode, tape worm). i'm not certain if his current problem is still a bacterial infection or if there is some underlying condition (worms, parasites) that is affecting him. i'm really interested in hearing if he's eating on his own at all. i can tell you that my wild caught seahorses were infested with worms so here's my proposition for him. pick up some prazi pro, you have three ways of administering it: 1) in a 10 gallon tank, add 2 ml of prazi pro and treat for 24 hours. this is repeated once a week for a series of 3 baths. 2) in a 10 gallon tank dose per label. 3) either inject into live feeder shrimp or administer via tube feeding. i've used all three methods but for method number 3 to be effective, i believe it's best to know you horses weight and ask someone smart (not me, i sought professional help) to calculate the dosage accordingly. keep your eyes on him, it's possible that, depending on the parasite load, he may need to be treated for a secondary bacterial infection.

now that i'm thinking about it, we may want to treat both of them with the prazi pro at the same time.
 
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